ESA/NASA Mars Agreement Signed (Update)

I think that this is a good thing. International co-operation is the way forward for space exploration of all colours and flavours. By co-ordinating efforts by different agencies, we avoid wasteful duplication of efforts (except in those areas where it is necessary, then it is ensured). We also ensure that a better global approach is used rather than competing to be the first to certain milestones.

Ultimately, of course, any sustainable HSF Mars effort will demand international co-operation. It's best that everyone get used to it now.

Yet again does "US cooperation" mean that NASA refuses to use metric as the rest of the world does? So what units will be used to fabricate the orbiters and landers?

Mars must not become a Socialist Metric Safe Haven!

For too long have these widespread cells of radicalized Metrifascist socialists festered in our midst, and thus our Project for an Imperial American Century must stamp them out before they can infect other worlds!

So... obviously the U.S. willl have to retrofit those currently planned fleets of hydrazine-powered Mars recon drones with Hellfire missiles and have them seek out and destroy any and all metric-based spacecraft and installations!

The Metric Menace can not be allowed to gain a foothold on other worlds!

The American taxpayers have already paid a huge amount of cash for the development of the very successful MER platform (Opportunity and Spirit). Why doesn't NASA make an effort to build and sell more MERs or at least license the design to the ESA? Mars is a big place and even a dozen MERs deployed could only scratch the surface. Why must the European taxpayers have to fund duplicate work with their Mars efforts?

As for further high cost planetary exploration, let NASA be allowed to pay for no more than 50% of the costs of any mission with the rest to be funded by a consortium of other agencies and nations. After all, hasn't NASA freely given away just about all the data it has collected from the early Pioneers to the Cassini mission? Let all who benefit also share the costs.

And yes, it's far past time for NASA to switch to metric measurements.

I think you will see a lot more international cooperation across the board in SMD as mission costs continue to rise and NASA's budget continues to stay flat.

SkyWatcher said:

The American taxpayers have already paid a huge amount of cash...

Um... define "huge", please.

... for the development of the very successful MER platform (Opportunity and Spirit). Why doesn't NASA make an effort to build and sell more MERs or at least license the design to the ESA?

Last decades model :)

Actually, the MERs are very outdated and all new rovers are using information learned from the rovers, information often learned the hard way, to design better and/or cheaper rovers that use better, different, and more specialized instruments.

Mars is a big place and even a dozen MERs deployed could only scratch the surface. Why must the European taxpayers have to fund duplicate work with their Mars efforts?

As above, the MER design often just can't handle the specific missions of the new rovers... or MER is expensive overkill for the ones MER can handle.

As for further high cost planetary exploration, let NASA be allowed to pay for no more than 50% of the costs of any mission with the rest to be funded by a consortium of other agencies and nations.

That would work if other countries wanted to raise their space budgets by fivefold or more. Otherwise matching even 50% of a given U.S. NASA mission budget would literally be impossible for the rest of the world's space budgets combined... unless they wanted to drop everything else they might want to do...

And yes, it's far past time for NASA to switch to metric measurements.

I'm informing the House Unimperial Measurements Committee that I've located another metric terrorist on the internet!!

I'm informing the House Unimperial Measurements Committee that I've located another metric terrorist on the internet!!

Yer hilarious.

Try looking at NPD 8010.2E -- a document that can be easily found with a simple search. NASA policy is to adhere to metric standards wherever possible, but implementing it across the board is a cultural problem, both internal and external. The military may be able to dictate measurement standards, but until US culture is willing to change you'll continue to find English measurements lurking about at NASA.

I have contacted NASA about the fact they have an "metric exemption" for Orion and apparently all other vehicles. The boilerplate excuse for not using metric on Orion etc is they can't get enough fasteners in metric. Considering 90% of the worlds population uses metric perhaps it would be in our best interest to use metric? I've never heard the European Space Agency unable to fabricate a vehicle because they "could not find enough metric fasteners."

The biggest problem is real leadership at decision making levels. Australia, New Zealand, Canada all went metric without the histrionic crying, whining and tantrums Americans pitch at the slightest mention of metric conversion. It also shows that as a nation we really are not willing to change fundamentally. Wanda Sykes in her latest HBO Special rakes us over the coals for our cowardly attitude toward the metric system. This resistance to change is a symptom of the inability of NASA/Aerospace to really change rather than do the same tricks with humans in space every ten years or so.

Every person who does repair work in this country has to purchase two sets of tools, one "standard" and one metric costing twice as much as necessary. We've destroyed enough spacecraft because of conversion screw-ups to pay for metric conversion in aerospace. It makes us look like hillbillies.

Well, if you want to get into things that NASA is required to be doing but is not doing then we'll be here all weekend... and it's only Wednesday...

Of course a discussion of what NASA should be doing but is not doing is also feasible... if you could clear your calendar up until about, say, January of 2010?... ;)

The metric conversion issue has bothered me for a long time. Every time it seems like progress is starting to be made, this country turns around and regresses again.

There's no doubt that the measurement issue hurts the international competitiveness of U.S. industries, and is a constant source of error and frustration.

The current situation where both English and metric measurements have to be worked with is the worst possible situation. As Ranwulf76 said, you need tooling for both systems. You also have to constantly make conversions. This is a recipe for maximizing costs and minimizing productivity.

Since it's utterly impossible to retreat back to an English measurements only world, the only logical way forward is to go all metric. The government in general and NASA in particular should be doing more to lead the way forward, but they're not doing enough.

My understanding is that NASA asked not long ago what it could do to encourage international cooperation. The number one reply from ESA and others was "please use the metric system." My original comment was that NASA "cooperation" in space generally means do it our way. The complete lack of action and passive refusal to convert to metric is the loudest statement about how serious we are about international "cooperation"

For 5 years in commercial I used metric exclusively. When I was forced (work outsourced to China) to take work in Aerospace again, the use of the irrational English/Imperial/Standard/American units and fasteners was painful and anachronistic. TitanLakes seems to be a person on this thread that understands the gravity of the situation. Others appear to make light of a system that they probably have not exclusively used. All of the manufacturing we have lost is now done in metric countries. In 1958 the inch was defined as 2.54 cm. All "our" measurements are derived from metric--why not skip a step and use metric directly.

Well, at best it's parochial... and at its worst it's downright provincial.

And of course there's no real reason not to finish the job.

But, right now, how do you get NASA to go metric and stay metric on all future projects... when administrators and managers lie at will and whim and are almost never held accountable for it?

What will stop the next Griffith throwing it all away in an imperial snit-fit?

*bleep*! I meant Griffin, of course.