Marsha Ivins Opines On Gender Diversity At NASA: "Enough Already!"
I’m a Retired Female Astronaut and I Can’t Understand the Obsession With ‘Gender Diverse’ Space Crews, opinion by Marsha Ivins, Time
“And then there was Saralyn Mark, an M.D. and specialist in gender-based medicine, who spoke about gender bias. Her main point: NASA needs to — no kidding — realize there are gender differences because sending “gender diverse” crews to Mars is going to be difficult. At least I think that was her point. It was frankly hard to listen to because enough already! …
… After Dr. Mark’s testimony, NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine once again mentioned how inspired his 11-year old daughter would be to see women taking leadership positions in space exploration. Well, Mr. Bridenstine, your agency has had women in leadership roles on and off the planet far longer than you have held your current position. And there have been women astronauts living, working and leading on spacecraft decades longer than your daughter has been alive. Why is she not inspired by that?”
Keith’s note: I am not certain Marsha Ivins was listening to the same presentation I heard (see C-SPAN transcript below). For starters Dr. Mark and the other speakers had 3 minutes to make their points. Dr. Mark’s commentary about differences in physiological responses to space travel based on gender is very real. Indeed, most of what she discussed had to do with physiology and human factors and how issues still remain to be addressed when planning long-term space missions. But Mark also spoke to the broader issue of diversity and the importance of making sure that when humans go into space that all of us are going.
Alas, Marsha Ivins seems to think that having women on space mission crews and in some leadership positions at NASA means that the whole diversity and gender equality thing is solved. It is not. Even the most cursory review of recent news stories will provide ample evidence of ongoing sexual harassment, pay disparities, imbalances in educational opportunities, and lingering paternalistic management practices within NASA, the aerospace industry, and the various scientific and academic institutions that make up the lager community that explorers space. But Marsha thinks that this was “hard to listen to because enough already!” Really Marsha?
Astronauts are special class of employees at NASA and often occupy a slightly strange position at the agency – one that is often isolated from reality. I know enough astronauts well enough to have seen this with my own eyes. In Ivins’ case she saw diversity in space crews and says OK well we have diversity. Check that box. Next task. What about the rest of NASA, Marsha? In reality this most certainly is not the case across the agency and the aerospace industry and the scientific community as a whole.
Jim Bridenstine literally jumped out of the gate on his first day at NASA pledging to support diversity and equality at NASA. Bridenstine goes out of his way almost daily to talk about diversity and his personal commitment to enhancing equality. What does Marsha Ivins do? She crosses the line and dares to question the sincerity with which a father speaks of his own daughter’s inspiration and future opportunities.
People look up to astronauts as role models. As such what does it say to people searching for guidance from an astronaut role model to see op eds with the words “I Can’t Understand the Obsession With ‘Gender Diverse’ Space Crews” in the title? Such tone deaf and ill-informed comments do a disservice to everyone who strives to have a role in the exploration of space.
It’s time for people like Marsha Ivins to descend from the former astronaut ivory towers and engage with the real world where pushing for more diversity and inclusion is never a bad thing to do. It will always be a work in progress. Contrary to what Ivins saw while wearing her flight suit there are 300 million people out there who live totally different lives – and they pay for this whole party in space. To them diversity and equality in opportunity matter. NASA succeeds best when all people can see themselves reflected in what NASA does.
Note: back in 2007 Marsha Ivins wanted to become a big time TV player in Hollywood. Have a look at her proposed project. At one point she says “I also understand that they should have access to a lot of stuff but do not get free reign to dig around in places we don’t want them digging, and again since I have total control over the story line since there are only 2 of us writing it, we can guide the story.” Hmmm … “places we don’t want them digging …”
National Space Council Transcript of comments by Dr. Saralyn Mark 20 August 2019. Source: C-SPAN
Click to read
[APPLAUSE] >> VERY GOOD, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH. DOCTOR MARK IS RECOGNIZED.
>> MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL SPACE COUNCIL, DISMISSED GUESTS, THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION TO SPEAK TO YOU TODAY. AND GENDER IMPACT EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES IN SPACE. IT IS MORE THAN SPACESUITS NOT FITTING FEMALE ASTRONAUTS. THE IMPACT FROM SHOES AND CLOTHING WE WEAR, ELECTRONIC DEVICES AND THE MEDICATIONS WE TAKE. MODIFYING APPEARANCES THROUGH GENDERED INNOVATION WILL NEVER WORK IN ANY ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING SPACE BATTLE FIELDS, AND IN OUR HOMES. THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF MEDICINE DEFINES GENDER AS A PERSON WHO SELF REPRESENTATION AS MALE OR FEMALE BASED ON SOCIAL INTERACTION AND IS BASED ON THIS, WE KNOW THE ENVIRONMENT CAN MODIFY GENE EXPRESSION WHICH IS CALLED EPIGENETIC, THAT IS THE COMPOSITION, MEN AND WOMEN ADAPT TO SPACE DIFFERENTLY WHERE EVEN SMALL DIFFERENCES SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACT THE QUALITY AND SAFETY OF LIFE INCLUDING ASTRONAUT WORK PERFORMANCE.
AND COMMERCIAL DOES ADDRESS THESE DIFFERENCES ON HOW THEY PLAN AND CONDUCT MISSIONS, DEVELOP PRODUCTS, HIGH PERFORMANCE CLOTHING INCLUDING LIQUID COOLING AND VENTILATION GARMENTS, TOOLS, HARDWARE AND MACHINES AND HOW THEY ESTABLISHED EXTRA VEHICULAR ACTIVITY FOR TRAINING PROTOCOLS. IT WAS RECOMMENDED NASA FULLY EVALUATED THE INFLUENCE GENDER HAS ON THE PHYSIOLOGICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGES THAT OCCUR DURING SPACEFLIGHTS. IN RESPONSE NASA LAUNCH TWO REVIEWS ASSESS THE IMPACT, AND ADAPTATION TO SPACE IN 2002 AND IN 2012. EVERY SYSTEM IN THE BODY CHANGES IN THE MICROCOSM OF SPACE. IT HAS BEEN OBSERVED THAT SOME MALE AND FEMALE ASTRONAUTS EXPERIENCE SPACEFLIGHT ASSOCIATED NEUROLOGICAL OR SYNDROME ARE FOUND IN WHICH THERE IS VISUAL IMPAIRMENT AND INCREASE CRANIAL PRESSURE.
INTERESTINGLY THE SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS ARE MORE SEVERE IN MAIL ASTRONAUTS. AND THE INABILITY TO STAND WITHOUT FAINTING IS MORE PREVALENT UPON LANDING IN FEMALE ASTRONAUTS THAN THEIR FEMALE COUNTERPARTS. ADDITIONALLY REAL — RADIATION IS A MAJOR HAZARD FOR SPACE TRAVEL. IT HAS BEEN RECORDED FEMALE SUBJECT TO MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO RADIATION-INDUCED CANCER THAN MALE SUBJECTS. AND THE EXPOSURE LIMITS FOR RADIATION AND THEN MEN ASTRONAUTS. THAT WILL IMPACT THEIR ABILITY TO PARTICIPATE IN LONG-DURATION SPACEFLIGHTS. THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHO IS FASTER, BETTER OR SMARTER, JUST DIFFERENT. WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO DEVELOP THE TOOLS AND RESOURCES TO ENSURE THAT EVERYONE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE AND WORK WELL ON EARTH AND IN SPACE.
MOST OF US WERE INFLUENCED BY THE APOLLO PROGRAM. AND IN THE COURSE IS OUR LIVES. WE NEED TO ENSURE THERE WILL BE AN ARTEMIS AFFECT. AND THE NEXT SUITS ON THE LETTER SURFACE WILL BE WORN BY WOMEN, NOT ONLY WILL IT FIT HER BUT ALSO INSPIRE THE NEXT GENERATION OF EXPLORERS. IT IS INTERESTING TO SEE THE GENDER SEX LENS. WHEN WE ACHIEVE THIS GOAL WE ARE TAKING A MAJOR LEAP TOWARD MISSION SUCCESS FOR EVERY ONE THAT WILL ENHANCE SPACE EXPLORATION AND DAILY LIVES. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION
There is one thing I dislike about the way NASA (or scientists and engineers in general) talk about diversity. Most of it is just that, talk. It’s fairly easy just to add the words “diversity is important” to a presentation. But that’s not solving the problem. I know the words are important, but quite a few people think that’s all they need to do. It isn’t. And this is also a really complicated problem. It makes landing a reusable first stage on a boat look like a straight-forward engineering problem. I think I’ve heard all of three useful talks on _how_ to promote diversity (and how not to, because some of the obvious ideas tend to backfire.)
Exactly. Deeds count more than words on a Powerpoint presentation.
I disagree with fcary’s comment about NASA not being diverse enough. From what I have seen, NASA does a good job of finding jobs and promotions for minorities and women. My experience is that affirmative action is the credo. In fact if you look at job holders and promotions in the last 15+ years, since the retirement of the Apollo/Shuttle generation, I think you would find white non-hispanic males, to be a distinct minority. The real question is qualifications since over much the same period less seems to be getting done. I have questioned how a lot of people get into certain positions because so many appear to have little if any relevant experience.
Sounds like a good case for a reverse discrimination lawsuit. NASA is stealing from the US taxpayers if they are putting people in who do not have the requisite education or experience and cannot get the job done.
At conferences, NASA-sponsored workshops, and missions, I don’t see anything close to the gender and ethnic balance you describe. Nor does it match the studies and surveys I’ve seen. That does include the whole planetary science community, engineers as well as scientists, not exclusively NASA civil servants. So we may be looking at different groups. But I’ve also noticed that some people are very careful when they are selecting speakers for conferences or people to present results at a press conference. The people on stage are typically a more diverse group than the community as a whole.
But you’ve also proven my point about this being a complex problem. NASA does not preferentially promote or hire women and underrepresented minorities. And I’m fairly sure their policies can’t be described as affirmative action. For equally qualified candidates gender and ethic balance is something to consider. And NASA does go out of its way to recruit women and minorities, and to get them to apply for jobs. But that’s a different matter.
Unfortunately, if people get the wrong impression, as you did, and start wondering if these people are qualified for their jobs, it makes things worse. It affects whether people listen to them at meetings, seriously consider their ideas, give them interesting projects to work on, etc. And that affects their choices about quitting and getting a job somewhere else, of (if an organization gets a reputation) taking the job in the first place.
By the way, I don’t know Marsha Ivins, but I’ve noticed some women have an easier time than others. This is all about how people interact with each other in the work place, and nothing along those lines is true of all women or all men. I have heard women complain that, to get by, they have to change the way they act and treat people, to match the typical behavior of their male colleagues. And some people just naturally act that way regardless of their gender. I suspect that affects how hostile they consider the workplace environment.
Where did you get the impression they do not hire or promote based on minority status, whether they are female, etc. I’ve seen it and experienced it, multiple times. Once I was offered a NASA job and the HR rep called me a few min later to let me know NASA could not hire me until a specific quota of minorities and females had been filled. He told me how many of each. As far as how well qualified the current set of managers are, we can see that by the progress they are making, or not. I am glad we have Elon Musk to depend upon because I think NASA has been demonstrating what they can do.
At one time, NASA may have used quotas, but the Supreme Court ruled quotas unconstitutional in 2003 (Gratz v. Bollinger.) That case involved university admissions, but I believe it applies across the board. Of course, some managers may have gender or ethnicity in the back of their head, when they decide two candidates are equally qualified. But I don’t think that’s official policy and it’s definitely not a quota.
More recently, some people within NASA tried to put language about diversity into the AOs for New Frontiers and Discovery missions. Basically saying proposals were expected to talk about how they would do something to improve diversity and that this would be considered in selections. The lawyers at NASA made them water down the language to a pretty meaningless statement that diversity was important and proposals might want to mention it.
Sorry to reply twice, but I missed the comment about managers and competence. There are lots of reasons why managers can be incompetent. And, based on performance, the current ones at NASA don’t seem to be superstars. But you’re singling out one possible reason for incompetence: Policies to hire and promote less qualified people based on gender and ethnic background. I don’t think that’s the case, and you certainly haven’t provided any evidence. (Even if both A and B are true, that doesn’t mean A caused B.)
Not a week goes by without a woman, a person of color, or someone from the LBGQ community contacts me about discrimination, bias, racism, harassment, or the issues – at NASA. Since I am not lawyer I have a standard way of advising them and referring them to people who can actually help them. Yes, NASA has an unusual ability to embrace diversity but it is inconsistent and woefully in adequate to deal with outstanding issues and to prevent future issues. Speaking as a an ex-NASA 64 year old WASPy white male, the old boy bias is not gone. In addition, while the agency has done a lot of late to embrace oft-ignored communities the current Administration has hobbled these efforts to the point of meaninglessness. I’m happy that Marsha feels like she had great time back in the day. But to extrapolate her cloistered astronaut experience to the entire breadth of the NASA family as she dismissively does is simply inaccurate and a disservice.
Would this be applicable to civil servant or contractor staff? If issue is diverse civil servant staff it may be moot as benefits and tenure are being reduced. Plus the bureaucracy is getting brutal. Also questionable if there ever will be a NASA moon mission.
I remember back in 1970s with first group of Shuttle astronauts, and lots of discussion of black astronauts, women astronauts, asian astronauts, etc. It was also mention we will reach equality when we refer whoever it may be simply as astronaut. I guess we still have a long way to go.
from the workforce data website 2019 report
https://www.nasa.gov/office…
still got some work to do on diversity
https://uploads.disquscdn.c…
But to extrapolate her cloistered astronaut experience to the entire breadth of the NASA family as she dismissively does is simply inaccurate and a disservice. I didn’t not see this extrapolation in her comments. She focused on women astronauts and crews. Personally, I see this as a great positive step and something to be acknowledged, so derided.