Penny4NASA

1. I think we addressed this when we discussed Neil DeGrasse Tyson not long ago. Added money for NASA does not do much good at the rate they waste the money. Look at the time and dollars spent on Constellation, Ares and Orion and what do we have to show for it? Look at the 30 years and $100 billion spent on ISS and ‘they forgot to plan how to use it’?   Look at USA’s statement about Shuttle: get NASA out of the way and they could operate it for half or 1/3 the cost.

   At some point someone within NASA needs to figure out what NASA is trying to do, why, and how to go about it.

   I could see spending lots more money for space if the money were put to good use. That is NOT today’s NASA. NASA needs serious changes in its planning, its programs, its mission, its management….so far I see no signs of serious changes.

   1.  Its interesting that those same people who artificially kept the Shuttle ops costs so high, are the same ones who were responsible for planning to operate ISS (but forgot to include how to use it) and who are now leading so much of the future effort. 

   2. Littrow,

      I think your point about waste is well made.  Of course, one man’s waste is another man’s passion, so it’s a tricky call.

      If we’re going to ask for more money, I think we need to adopt the procedures of the federal spending game — every dollar requested is tied to a specific allocation.  In other words, don’t ask for so many more dollars (or some percentage); rather ask for X dollars for program A, Y dollars for program B, Z dollars for program C, etc.  The specific allocations help ensure that any additional money will be spent where it will do the most good with respect to beneficial programs.  The catch is that crafting a petition will be a whole lot more difficult, because there is bound to be much debate over how any additional money should be allocated.  Nothing advantageous comes easy.

      Steve

      1.  excatly the point made in my reddit here:  http://www.reddit.com/r/spa…

2. If you do then you support JPL engineers earning over $250,000/yr and having their childrens college tuition paid for.

   Let private industry decide if Mars is worth exploring.  If it is they would do it less expensively and bare the cost risk.  No government agency knows what a budget is.

   1. “JPL engineers earning over $250,000/yr and having their childrens college tuition paid for”

      Barry,

      Is this for real? or are you pointing at one or two senior engineering managers? In my universe, engineers don’t earn “over $250,000/yr,” or even close. For a quarter of a million $$ every 12 months I’d almost consider moving to the US! But, then again, there’s a lot more to consider than just the money. How many engineers at JPL can you name that are making that kind of money?

      Steve

      1.  I fugured all those JPL guys must make this much?

         1. Are you asking seriously? If so I can assure you that, in general, we aerospace engineers are paid somewhat less than our bretheren in the oil patch and tad more than those in the construction industry. 

            If it was sarcasm, then nevermind.  🙂

      2.  Last year he thought he wanted to find a new job.  He got one bite and the job paid $150K.

         By the way, they got raises in October.

   2. For the LA area the government pay scale tops out at GS-15, step 8, at $155,500/year, nowhere near $$250,000/year.  Even assuming that the vast majority of engineers are GS-15 step 8, which is a bad assumption, your figure is still way off the mark.  Exaggeration doesn’t make your point.

   3. If you’re being serious, you have absolutely no idea of what you’re talking about.  I’ve been at JPL for well over 30 years, am near the top of the technical pay scale, and make nowhere near $250,000 annually. Of the hundreds of people that I know, there may be one who makes something close to that – however, this person is an internationally-recognized authority in his field and has substantially advanced both the knowledge and the state of the practice in his area.

      JPL employees also pay for their children’s university tuition like everyone else.  The only exception is that since we’re Caltech employees, if a JPL employee’s child gets admitted to Caltech, they don’t have to pay tuition.  In all the time I’ve been there, I’ve seen that happen exactly once (and no, it wasn’t my child – we don’t have children).

      1.  If you truly are a JPL employee, you are being cheated.  Everything I say I can document.

      2.  I’m not talking about Charles Elachi, the general, or anyone else at that level.  God only knows what they are earning in $’s and perks.

3. I would gladly shell out 10 cents of every tax dollar I pay.

4. This petition probably does not understand how the math works out here. The projected FY13 revenues are $2.902 trillion. Outlays are $3.803 trillion. $1.781 trillion is the FY13 tax revenue excluding Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment, and other retirement. While the Supreme Court has ruled these latter categories (Social Security and Medicare, at least) are taxes, I dislike the idea that they can be spent on discretionary programs like NASA. NASA FY13 request is $17.7 billion. Thus, FY13 NASA would be 0.47% of the Federal budget (the common rhetorical point), but it would be 0.99% (nearly one penny) of non-social insurance tax revenues. So is this petition asking for another $110 million or so? (Excuse errors due to rounding.)   

5. I’m so happy to see responses (positive and negative).  I’ve contacted Obama, all senators, representatives (they won’t respond unless you are within their districts

   I’m a CPA, I guarantee you I have documentation for everything I state. 

   I’m not talking about 1 or 2 upper managers, I’m talking hundreds.

   SOOOO….many perks.  They just got raises in October.  Did you? 

   Other perks, they get annual physicals and the taxpayers pick up what the health insurance doesn’t, they get every other Friday off.

   This is just the beginning…..I have more to report.

   1. @barryJPL: Perhaps as a CPA you’re “servicing” a select group of JPL’ers. There are dozens of people with both line and project management jobs with decades of experience. If $250K seems exorbitant, you don’t understand the scope and responsibilities of their world.

   2. You haven’t a clue of what you’re talking about.  See my reply to your post above – if you don’t believe me, try applying for a job and see what kind of offer you get.  Unless you walk on water or want to be JPL Director, I guarantee it’s not going to be close to $250,000.

      The taxpayers do NOT pick up where the health insurance leaves off, and the health insurance is no bargain, either.  The PPO my wife and I are in costs us $700/month, and there are the usual co-pays and deductibles.  As for annual physicals, the health plans at many companies (e.g., Raytheon, Google, Apple, Boeing) include annual physicals as something for which the company will pay (again, with the usual co-pay) because it’s cheaper for the insurance company in the long run.The “every other Friday off” is a red herring, Barry.  Most employees have chosen to work 80 hours over 9 days (which is why they get every other Friday off) I usually get to work about 9 in the morning, and leave about 7PM.  There are still a lot of people in their offices at that time.Finally, raises – I got a whopping 0.9% last October, and many people I know didn’t get one at all.Of course, if you consider being employed a perk, then I guess I have one.I think your information is suspect.

   3.  Perhaps a few dozen engineers make over $200K at JPL. Most engineers with >20-years experience typically earn much less than that. The 2% raise last year was preceded by a 0% raise the previous year. Key staff can get full-ride scholarships for their kids – at Caltech (good luck getting admitted)! JPL employees are offered several health plans, with pre-tax deductions for premiums. If the costs are more than the plan pays, the employee shells out the difference. Employees selecting the 9/80 work schedule get every other Friday off, but the are scheduled for 9 hours every Mon-Thurs. Some employees (i.e. with critical roles on flight projects) cannot elect the 9/80 option. Most JPL engineers work 60+ hour weeks routinely. JPL employees aren’t there to get rich, they’re there to do things nobody else will attempt to do.

      1.  My children don’t go to Cal-Tech and there tuition’s are being paid.  Over the past 3 yrs, everyday, the news is reporting…..  no one is getting raises, many are losing their jobs and many of them are teachers, massive layoffs everywhere, employees are taking considerable salary reductions, college tuition is going up and students are protesting they can’t afford the cost, all employers have made major cut backs in employee benefits-health insurance, retirement plans, etc.

         I could go on talking about all the other tax payers provided JPL benefits. 

         Simple fact, public companies do not allow their mid and upper managers to take every other Friday off.  I can assure they too are working 50-60 hrs/wk, on a regular basis.  More than that, their jobs are at risk.  No one ever gets fired at JPL. 

         Like I said, if there is a reason to go to mars (again), private industry would be there and at less cost.

         1. barryJPL

            I guess that Boeing, NGST and LM do not count as public companies.  They have been 9/80 for years.  Their mid managers (all the way to regional managers, at least) get every other Friday off.

            Their general engineering stall also received both raises and profit sharing/bonuses (in at least one of the three companies mentioned, all engineers in company sectors did receive profitsharing/bonuses in all three of the past three years) in the past several years.  Their managers also participate in other compensation at mid management levels (stock options, etc) I guess they do not count either.

            Since you are posting this type of information, what sal grade is your husband?  If he is getting that kind of pay/benefits, he should be a 14/15.

            Willie

6. Everything I say I can document.  Don’t know where your getting your information from…..I have the pay stubs.

   Other benefits:

   1)  Every other Friday off.
   2)  JPL is putting more into employee retirements funds than the employee,  
   2)   Items covered at 100% by JPL:

   They receive laptops AND tablets, both. Replaced every couple of years. 
   4)  Ce
   3) 
   2)  Annual Physicals, what isn’t covered by insurance JPL reimburses-ZERO out of pocket for the employee.

   1. JPL employess get a 403(b) instead of a 401(k).  If the employee contributes $0, JPL’s fixed contribution amount is indeed more.  If the employee contributes the limit, the employer contribution remains the same – significantly less than the limit, and not a very good deal compared to a matching 401(k).

      You’re really a CPA? 

7. I accidentally sent out the last post, it wasn’t organized nor was I done.

   No……I am not talking 1 or 2 people.  My husband is 5-6 levels from the top, there are hundreds above him.

   Items that employees get for free and are using for non-JPL activities:

   1)  Cell phones.  I-Phones with internet.  Replaced every couple of yrs.  They do not reimburse  JPL (taxpayers) for personal use.
   2)  Apple Laptops AND Tablets, both.  Again, replaced every couple of years and personally used.
   3)  Floating internet towers.  Connect from anywhere, they are subscription based, i.e., have a monthly fee.
   4)  Annual physicals, what the health insurance doesn’t pick up JPL does.
   5)  Air Mileage used for personal use-they have to use up their budgets so they travel alot.  With Video Conferencing their is no reason to travel.  The taxpayers paid for the travel, why aren’t the mileage being put into a bank for their future business travel. 

   There is much, much more, I’ll save it for another time.

   Anyone know how to contact NASA’s-Charles Bolden?  I have contacted Obama-no response, every senator-off-topic responses, local representatives-no response.  The GAO asking them to investigate.

   How much do you want to pay to go to Mars with such extravagances?

   By the way I am a CPA-I know financial abuse when I see it.

    

   1. Cell phones: Yes, JPL’ers can get smart phones. Very useful for e-mail,  calendars, text, etc. especially when a laptop can’t be used. A “reasonable” amount of personal use is permitted. I know of employees required to reimburse for phone charges deemed excessive. We do get audited. I carry two phones: a JPL iPhone I’ve had for ~3 years and my personal Droid. It’s easier for me to just keep those separated.

      Apple Laptops and tablets: I have a Dell PC, due for replenishment in 8 months. JPL is encouraging employees to select machines that have been returned from recently laid-off employees. We don’t get to keep them! I’ve seen a few people with tablets. I’m not convinced they’re more convenient than a laptop. I have my own laptop and desktop to separate my personal business from JPL business.

      Floating internet towers: What are those? If you mean the lab-wide wireless, it’s there for business purposes. There’s also guest wireless, which is often over-subscribed.

      Annual physicals: My healthcare provider does these and I make the co-pay out of my pocket. We do have a health services office, but I’ve never used them for check-ups.

      Frequent-flyer miles: IF your airline offers the most economical fare for a given trip, you can accumulate miles for that trip. If you’re on a project with significant travel, you might earn a couple of coach tickets every year. Wow! I had a few years where I traveled more than 50K miles. The last thing I wanted to do was to get on a plane for personal travel.

      None of the above “perks” are why I work at JPL. I wouldn’t quit if they went away, either.

      You’re barking up the wrong tree.

   2. So, if you have them, where are the documents that prove all of this?  Oh, right, you don’t actually have proof.  You’re just another anonymous internet liar.
      You forgot to mention that all of us here at JPL also have gold-plated toilet fixtures with diamond-studded nameplates, and our desks are made entirely of Mars rocks.  Rovers bring us lunch every day, too!

      And what the heck is a “floating internet tower?”  In a decade of working here, I haven’t seen anyone receive an item even remotely resembles a tower constructed entirely of internets suspended from balloons…

   3. So where are these official documents you have that will prove your currently unsubstantiated claims?  Oh, right – you don’t actually have any.  You’re just another anonymous internet liar.

      In the spirit of heresay, I’d like to point out that you forgot to mention JPL’s gold-plated toilet fixtures with diamond-studded nameplates.  And the fact that every single desk is made entirely of Mars rocks.  Also, rovers serve us a lunch of puréed hundred dollar bills, every single day.  It’s a little known fact that government contractors can only eat US currency.

      And what the heck is a “floating internet tower?”  In a decade of working here, I haven’t seen anyone receive an item even remotely resembles a tower constructed entirely of internets suspended from balloons…

   4. I’m a researcher, barry, and I know misuse and manipulation of data when I see it.  What do you about the provenance of your data, and how have you checked it?  Is your data complete, and how do you know it’s accurate?  If your data is a subset of the JPL population, is it representative, and how do you know?  Are you using the data in a statistically valid manner?  Are you deliberately misrepresenting the information you do have?

      1.  I know it’s correct because I live it.  I went to Europe a year ago on mileage points earned on JPL work travel, I used a JPL cell phone to call home, the paychecks are deposited into my bank account, I get reimbursed for my childrens tuition to California State College and Junior College.

         Researcher, really….Do your own research if you don’t believe me.

         I’m a Certified Public Account with a Big 4 background, working for Fortune 100 Companies.  I know waste…..It should be Occupy Government Funding.

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