Is A Human Space Flight Compromise Emerging?

Keith's note: Only a week and a half remain before the much-anticipated Space Summit at NASA KSC on 15 April. While no public mention has been made as to venue, agenda, participants, audience etc., there does seem to be a general consensus forming behind the scenes as to what sort of rethinking might be acceptable to all parties with regard to where NASA human spaceflight is going.

This is the consensus that seems to forming in and among NASA, OSTP, and NSC: Ares 1 and 5 remain cancelled. Orion is continued - but in a "Lite" variant designed to ferry people to and from ISS. This "Orion Lite" would fly on human-rated EELVs and would be, in essence, a government competitor to what NASA is also encouraging the so-called "Merchant 7" (SpaceX, Orbital et al) to develop. The commercial activities would remain unchanged from what was announced in February. Meanwhile, NASA will continue to fly the Space Shuttle albeit at a stretched out rate (2 or so flights/year) while ET production is restarted.

In addition to closing the "gap" for American human spaceflight, stretched out Space Shuttle operations will allow a rapid implementation of a Shuttle-C ("Sidemount") HLV to be developed. This Shuttle-C HLV will carry cargo, but no crew. The Shuttle-C will be a direct upgrade to the existing Space Shuttle Orbiter system with only the Orbiter replaced with engines and a cargo carrier. Everything else remains the way it is now.

DIRECT and other "inline" shuttle-derived concepts are no longer being given serious consideration. With specific regard to DIRECT, despite their voluminous and detailed claims, the costs that they depend upon to make their case are simply incorrect and not credible - and NASA knows this (they checked with the companies involved). This is all about cost right now. Accurate costs.

While keeping Orion alive, NASA will also seek to develop a human-rated exploration spacecraft that only operates in space. The initial version will likely use unused ISS modules (enhanced MPLMs, Node X, Hab Module, ISS ECLSS) and Constellation systems. Its component parts would be launched by the Shuttle/Shuttle-C. The exploration vehicle will be assembled on-orbit at the ISS. This exploration spacecraft will be a pathfinder for more complex systems that will be able to traverse cis-lunar space on a regular basis.

These ideas will be voiced by various participants at the Space Summit. It is anticipated that NASA will be called upon to do a routine 30-60 study following the summit and that formal White House approval would come some time during the Summer.

If adopted by the White House, and accepted by Congress, this "compromise" (no doubt the White House will want to use some euphemism instead) will bring layoff numbers back down from the looming abyss that overt Constellation cancellation and Shuttle retirement would have caused; keeps the Administration's interest in commercial space alive; retains in-house NASA experience in human spaceflight systems (development and operations), brings the ISS to its full potential -and then some; and looks to field human-rated spacecraft capable of leaving LEO much sooner than Constellation is ever likely to have done.

Of course, as with just about anything associated with this Space Summit, its stealth modus operandi, and interagency squabbles, this may all change, your mileage may vary, etc. As always, stay tuned.


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The Constellation program was seen as an Apollo retread by many (including myself), but at least it was a lunar program.
This compromise is better than nothing, but not by much.

Very interesting.

Obama has to keep everyone working, and not break anything.

If it happens, this is a compromise I can live with. It looks like some smart people got around a table and tried to make the best they could out of the whole thing. I am encouraged.

Hopefully this Orion Lite would be capable of being upgraded to a moon mission version for future use. Then, it could initially be used as a LEO backup in case the commercial HSF does not proceed in a timely manner.

Once one or more commercial HSF craft are established, the Orion Lite could be upgraded to the lunar mission version leaving LEO to the commercial world.

Super!!

If this is accurate, then this approach, end-to-end, makes a lot of sense.

The only thing I find troubling is NASA competition by Orion-lite with the commercial contenders for LEO access. In the past, whenever NASA has competed with commercial suppliers, for instance mission integration by the NASA ISS Program vs Spacehab integration, NASA always wins since NASA calls the shots on contracts and management processes. NASA costs ten times as much and takes several times as long, and the processes are difficult and expensive for everyone, carrier and cargo, but NASA always wins!

They'd be better off to ask LM to come in with a LEO proposal, whether Orion-lite or more likely the fly-back vehicle they'd originally proposed. If NASA wants some of the action, it would be best to assign some NASA CS to work under agreement for the contractors and let them learn how to do the job.

"In addition to closing the "gap" for American human spaceflight, stretched out Space Shuttle operations will allow a rapid implementation of a Shuttle-C ("Sidemount") HLV to be developed."

I can tell you that the sidemount is not a sure-thing at this point, especially based on direction we're getting regarding heavy lift studies. Personally, I hope the sidemount option is dropped ASAP, since the ONLY advantage to the sidemount is existing hardware (and the main disadvantage is capacity to LEO, which is "sort of" important for a HLV).

With an estimated cost of $6B to develop Shuttle-C, the $3B/year cost of the Shuttle and who-knows-what to finish Orion-lite, I certainly hope this compromise comes with extra money for NASA; otherwise, we can kiss all the promised research funds goodbye, and watch unmanned space get their budgets raided once again.

Keith,

I pray you are being somewhat responsible in posting this. I have lived in the NASA rumor mill for a long time and items like this item posted in a forum like this can have grave personal consequences to those that are directly involved despite their being true or not.

I hope you haven't succumbed to the sensationalism that drives "hits" and personal gain.

Folks are really hurting and emotions are beginning to take over. Playing on these emotions is playing with fire. It's already happening.

Generating false hope can easily generate unintended consequences which you will never be aware. I hope you know what your dealing with, this is very serious stuff.

You stand to get some of this on you whether you like it or not.

Personally, I would just keep quiet at this point. We are beyond where "journalistic" disclaimers are effective or possibly even justified. Prudence is warranted.

Editor's note: thanks for the advice - but its not like I started doing this yesterday. I know exactly what can happen to people - hence a certain lack of detail. But not to tell people - all of whom are also affected - what I know is going on that directly affects their future - would be a very irresponsible decision on my part.

Well with this happening soon:
The X-37 program, originally a NASA initiative, was transferred to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in 2004. The Air Force's X-37B program builds upon the early development and testing conducted by NASA, DARPA and the Air Force Research Laboratory.
Like 19 Apr 2010

I asked the President to think I will send email this week. Why we are not designing/ building a solar system travel Human rated spacecraft on-orbit is beyond me at this point.

This is the thing(X-37 capability) that likely will not be commercial for some time to come. I hope it works as planned. Orion-Lite is a waste of funds as NASA should start on Solar System 1 using what was started with Orion. MSFC can get working on the HLV with the MDC pronto! I'm not sure ESMD is the place for this activity. We have two other MD that it may fit better.

Folks:

There you go. Sounds pretty achievable to me. Takes the furthest along part of constellation (Orion) and the best of what the Shuttle program leaves behind (a heavy load launch system). Also a real reason (mission?) to restart the external tank production line (sidemount cargo launcher). Even Edwin Aldrin will be happy about the development of a "true" spacecraft.

Does any of this sound too expensive? Any show stoppers in technology development?

It makes so much sense that you gotta wonder why they didn't come up with this plan in the first place.

Now it needs a name.

Any ideas on that?

tinker

> In addition to closing the "gap" for American human spaceflight, stretched out Space Shuttle operations will allow a rapid implementation of a Shuttle-C ("Sidemount") HLV to be developed. This Shuttle-C HLV will carry cargo, but no crew. The Shuttle-C will be a direct upgrade to the existing Space Shuttle Orbiter system with only the Orbiter replaced with engines and a cargo carrier. Everything else remains the way it is now.

So the idea is to keep the SRB and external fuel tank. The cargo carrier is new. Can the Orbiter (a) take off (b) fly and (c) dock using remote control? Because if it cannot that is new software.

I cannot see the development costs being significantly lower than those of DIRECT.

No upper stage is mentioned, so a means of getting (i) people and (ii) cargo from LEO to L1/L2/LLO/Phobos will be needed. I will need more information about the scrapheap challenge inspace exploration spacecraft before knowing how viable it is. The main engine(s), RCS, fuel tank section and guidance system will be new. There are many advantages to using items designed for the ISS in the new section to be used by humans but the items were probably designed to be one-offs.

I hope there is a destination or high level aim like create an interplanetary network.

This plan would be better than Obama's "non-plan," but it leaves a lot to be desired.

I'd like to see Constellation 2.0. Constellation 2.0 would use the Orion spacecraft currently under development. The Ares rockets would be replaced with two inline SDLVs. DIRECTS J-120 configuration Orion and a cargo module could be launched to service the ISS. DIRECTS J-246 configuration would launch Lunar missions it would carry the EDS and Orion with an Extended Service Module. The ESM would carry fuel to refuel a reusable lander previously launched into Lunar orbit.

NASA could retire the J-120 once a commercial company provide itself capable of servicing the ISS.

A reusable lander will allow NASA to save lander production cost. Furthermore, will reduce the number of launches per Lunar mission to one.

"So the idea is to keep the SRB and external fuel tank. The cargo carrier is new. Can the Orbiter (a) take off (b) fly and (c) dock using remote control? Because if it cannot that is new software."

I believe the shuttle can do A and B already. It can do auto-reentry/landing too if a data cable is hooked up. Docking is strictly manual.

As for the cargo carrier... I wonder if there is any thought to putting the RS-68 in place of the SSME?

This is excellent, Keith - keep on the lookout for signs of any detours from this well thought out compromise, and expose 'em if necessary.

I do hope that Dr. Degrasse-Tyson's message makes it's way to the collective consciousness of all the stakeholders- we have to remember that LEO is not the primary mission of NASA anymore- it's no longer a frontier.

Lets get a plan to go further that's affordable and SUSTAINABLE.

Funny how some who oppose single-payer health insurance nevertheless believe that a government monopoly on spaceflight is just peachy. The rest of that overpriced nonsense we can live with (largely because it is self-limiting), but pray that there is no government competition to the fledgling private spaceflight companies. As Beal, Spacehab and Kistler discovered there is no surer way to scare off investors than with a government competitor.

I'm still betting that there's no compromise. These rumors are just the wounded parties whistling in their graveyard. Obama will tell them that the old way is dead and they should get over it.

KC has good sources...but it would be out of Obama's nature to do most of this. The only part I can see happening is the development of non earth return space vehicles from station/Orion hardware. I've thought that likely for quite sometime. I agree Ares in all versions is gone, but I think shuttle is as well. We will see, not many days in the future

Robert G. Oler

@A_M_Swallow
> I cannot see the development costs being significantly lower than those of DIRECT

Shuttle-C estimates come in at $6B, with no infrastructure change from the Shuttle launch systems. Direct's current estimates start at $8.5B, and Keith just said that NASA considers those numbers suspect (no fix for base heating issues, etc, etc) -- besides, at $8.5B you could throw the money at ULA and get an Atlas V heavy that could (with an assist from ESA's ATV) deliver large cargo containers to the ISS.

I just hope this compromise doesn't cut off funds for long term R&D for a kerosene HLV; LH2 and ATK solids are not a cost effective way to put large payloads into orbit.

If they were to actually to resume flying the shuttle for an indefinite period, there are a LOT of questions that would need to be asked, such as:

How much per year for how long to recover the ability to launch shuttles (provide a new supply of consumable parts).
How much per year to maintain the ability to launch shuttles after consumables were available again, when for years the quoted per-year cost to fly even if no flights occurred was about 5 billion a year?
Where is all that money going to come from and who will lose out?
Will the old NASA again be in the position of competing against the private sector?
If the private sector demonstrates that they can do it cheaper and quicker, will they then be willing to give up manned shuttle launches?
What specific payloads would the shuttle and the side-mount be launching to the station? The abandoned crew habitation module or the large centrifuge facility module or both?
How long would it take the old NASA to build just one of these? A decade? That means keeping the ability to fly shuttles available at $50 billion per decade until we can use the capacity again.
Will the side mount HLV be able to launch equipment for exploration beyond LEO such as propellant depots?
What happens if we have another shuttle disaster? Does this kill the whole program?
Where are we going to find the cash to build the equipment to explore beyond LEO if we are still flying the shuttle?
Will the critical VASIMR program funding be continued?

I'm a fan of DIRECT, but I'll be happy with Shuttle-C to preserve HLV capacity. The shuttle stack gives us lots of options and many ways to reuse. DIRECT is proof of the potential reuse of the stack, as was the NLS studies NASA did years ago.

The shuttle stack may not be as "perfect" (however you want to define that) as a clean sheet HLV booster, but with the current economy and public support, it's better to fly what we do have than have a perfect paper rocket that will never fly.

Now let's come up with some really cool science payloads that fit in a big Shuttle-C faring.

I'm skeptical. The whole benefit of the new plan was controlling cost and ceasing competition with private space.

What Keith reports on nullifies the cost control of the new plan by maintaining the STS infrastructure. And it hurts private space by competing with pork hardware.

And it includes a human exploration system. All this stuff couldn't be afforded for the past 30 years, so what makes it affordable now?

This solution seems very reasonable. I wish Obama's budget had included this level of detail when it was announced in February. The main problem I have with this so-called "compromise" is that Ares V is left out. Without a true heavy lift vehicle, how are we ever going to do bigger things like go to Mars?

Tinker said, "Now it needs a name. Any ideas on that?"

How about VSE (2.0)

This actually makes pretty good sense.

an HLV is good, and shuttle-C is an ok concept too, especially since we've got the existing infrastructure.

Space-only manned craft is very good.

Orion Lite is ok.

Continue shuttle flights, meh, what the hell, especially in light of the shuttle-C plan.

So yeah, actually pretty surprising for an outcome from a political process.

Winston Churchhill was right -- the Americans can be depended upon to do the right thing, after exhausting the alternatives...

richard schumacher said, "Obama will tell them that the old way is dead and they should get over it."

Not likely. the President doesn't need to make a trip to Florida just to do that. He could just sit the whole thing out in the white house.

If he's coming it's because he thinks he can make a difference. And I hope Keith is right about what that difference may be.

I'm for anything get us the hell outta LEO after 40 years.


Damn the Gravity!

SOLD!

IF, when working out the workforce implementation & contract details this time:

Location, Location, Location = KSC

Keith

This is an interesting approach. I find it odd that the scoffers and the know it alls missed the most important part of your post, which is the in-space exploration vehicle. This is the most significant departure in architecture from Apollo on geritol since the beginning of the Space Exploration Initiative.

With a human rated vehicle that can traverse cis lunar space, a Shuttle-C and such vehicles are all we need to operate in near Earth space, including lunar orbit, near earth asteroids, and even to Phobos or Deimos. The same Aerobrake that can get such a system back to ISS can do the same at Mars. A human rated aerobrake would be a major breakthrough in tech.

Couple the Shuttle C with other advanced tech like a solar electric tug, such as we designed in 2005, and ISRU, and the solar system is ours.

Dennis is right about the significance of the in-space vehicle, if funds are actually provided to develop it and especially if it is designed for more than one use. (Since it will not land or re-enter, and since it would presumably return to the space station in an undamaged condition, ready to be re-fueled, the potential for re-use exists as soon as the vehicle exists). The idea of by-passing the use of a large expendable Orion exploration capsule in favor of an in-space vehicle could represent a turning point in our thinking on the design and use of space vehicles.

I'm one of the biggest Cx/STS/ESAS bashers out there but this is a compromise I would be happy with. I'd live with the fact that it'd be a jobs program for half a decade, but it can be something great.

"This is all about cost right now. Accurate costs."

LOL, and someone has accurate costs on sidemount? Oh my, I seriously doubt that.

Dennis,

I agree 100% this new plan will indeed give us the Solar System. Things are looking up again :-)

Tom

"I find it odd that the scoffers and the know it alls missed the most important part of your post, which is the in-space exploration vehicle. This is the most significant departure in architecture from Apollo on geritol since the beginning of the Space Exploration Initiative."

"Couple the Shuttle C with other advanced tech like a solar electric tug, such as we designed in 2005, and ISRU, and the solar system is ours."

Absolutely! Wow - this is going to be awesome stuff if we get to do it.

The key is getting NASA thinking about the from LEO systems - and not Earth-to-LEO. I think some people simply can't think past Apollo: "going to the Moon? We'll you'll have to leave directly from Earth and take a capsule with you!" - d'uh, never seen Star Trek :D

For this, and for the following reason, I desperately hope the Orion-lite disappears - sounds like a huge waste of resources and catastrophic competition.

"but pray that there is no government competition to the fledgling private spaceflight companies. As Beal, Spacehab and Kistler discovered there is no surer way to scare off investors than with a government competitor."

Please, let's hope...

Um... Very interesting! This is the best approach IMO.

Not only we get Orion and lunar dreams back, we also throw out the flawed Ares 1 rocket and get a Shuttle-derived side-mount. Hundreds of jobs are saved, commercial and ISS continue... It's really wise.

Pawn:

I don't understand why you are on Keith's case so much for posting this. If the rumors exist, let's hear them. We know (or should know) to take news leaks and industry buzz for what they are, just leaks and buzz!

A lot of people have been saying a lot of things lately. I don't get too worked up over any of it because it is opinion and politics.

So we are building a transit habitation module first? I like that. Makes sense.
Moon, Mars, Asteroids - all need a transit/surface habitat.

One thing puzzles me about the side-mount shuttle-derived HLV concept. Why use shuttle main engines? They are highly complex and expensive because they are designed for reuse. Once the existing engines are used up, would it not be cheaper to use disposable engines after that?

As a compromise,,at least it continues to allow for HSF to go on, and hopefully will prevent major economic disruptions in the aerospace industry..I hope its true.

This seems a good sensible compromise.

What would great would be an announcement at Obama's Space summit that as an initial mission for the new "human-rated exploration spacecraft" Men(and Women) would orbit the Moon by the 50 anniversary of Apollo 8.

So NASA temporarily saves Shuttle jobs at the expense of "moving on" to bigger and better things ?.......I dont see how NASA can continue to operate Shuttle (+ paying a penalty for turning production lines back on), R&D and operate Shuttle-C, R&D and operate Orion Lite, fly an increased robotic manifest, operate ISS, grow the "private" sector, AND develop technologies NASA MUST have to do any kind of substantial beyond LEO exploration---and live within the current budget. Hopefully this possible compromise comes with more money or NASA will be in the same situation its in now (too many things to do & not enough $) in another 4-5 years.

Unfortunately going down this road more than likely means we're stuck with 1970s technology/infrastructure for the next 30 years.....

This approach sounds interesting and I like it. I am glad to see Orion stick around. Until other companies have proven their ability to do anything better than NASA or the big aerospace companies it is all wishful thinking. I wish SpaceX and Orbital the best, but I don't want MY space program to put all of it's eggs in one basket.


The pessimist in me sees a Shuttle C as a VERY expensive new vehicle development program. It can reuse Shuttle parts as much as possible and STILL be too expensive. Nothing to do with the Shuttle is cheap, so using its parts will not be cheap either. Plus you have to create a brand new spacecraft. It is a brand new vehicle, and brand new vehicles are expensive. To think that is cheaper to start a brand new vehicle program than to fly a bunch EELVs is delusional at worst, well placating at best.


I would rather see the money spend to create new in space infrastructure that can leverage existing launch vehicles than to make a brand new way to go LEO. Launch spacecraft dry, no propellant. If they are launched dry you can launch a lot of space craft. Then you are volume constrained and not mass constrained on your launch vehicle. And that is a better problem to have.


The major advantage a HLV provides is you can launch a soaking wet vehicle into space. But if the vehicle is to be reused for multiple interplanetary missions, it will need a gas station of some kind on orbit or at L1.


And that provides a bunch of great focus for the technology development efforts:


1.) Figure out how to launch a full up interplanetary spaceship DRY on a Delta-IV with minimum mods to the launch vehicle.


2.) Figure out how to get propellant from the lunar poles to fuel farms at L1.


3.) Use Orion as the ferry for crews to get to and from the interplanetary spaceship that loiters at L1 between missions.


4.) Use Cygnus and Dragon to provide resupply to the vehicles that loiter at L1.


ISRU is going to happen someday. It is an inevitability. Advanced space power systems are going to happen someday. It is also an inevitability. Miniaturized technologies for ECLSS, avionics, etc are also going to happen someday. It is an inevitability.


An HLV is a need only when you have limited space infrastructure. It is not part of a long term space faring culture. Hundreds of years from now historians may say that we had a brief love affair with monster rockets, but once our subsystems became sufficiently advanced and we had very basic resources available in orbit, they went the way of the dinosaurs, because they are simply not necessary.


If we are going to develop a new spacecraft, we should put our money into the interplanetary vehicle and not some silly HLV stopgap boondoggle. But other than that, I like this compromise, ahem, I mean "policy re-vectoring".

Keith, et al. The "compromise" you suggest is what was proposed as a "fallback option" by the Augustine Committee: see page 71 of the report. "There are simply too many risks at the present time not to have a viable fallback option [to commercial crew] for risk mitigation...In the end, the Committee thought that the most cost-effective fallback option that would move NASA most rapidly toward exploration is to continue to develop the Orion, and move as quickly as possible to the development of a human-ratable heavy lift vehicle."

As I have noted previously, the Orion spacecraft development could proceed in a version optimized for LEO trips, including trips to the ISS. NASA would gain the benefit of the design maturation process for Orion's systems in this somewhat lower risk environment. This initial configuration would be lighter, and consistent with the lift capabilities of the existing EELV's. Development of the more capable Orion outfitting (including satellite construction/servicing capabilities) would proceed consistent with the schedule for development of fuel depots, etc in Earth orbit and of course the availability of a greater capacity HLLV.

Does this compete for funds with the Space-X Dragon or Soyuz in the context of the proposed U.S. commercial crew plan? In the minds of some at OMB, I would not be surprised if the answer were yes. I hypothesize (without benefit of insider information) that the OMB FY 2011 budget decision process included continuation of Orion as an option to preserve "U.S. Space Leadership." I have noted elsewhere that a U.S. Commercial crew capsule (along the KISS lines envisioned by the Augustine Committee) is not much more than a Soyuz wanna-be, with extraordinary investment risks -- if private capital is assumed as a necessary element. The Augustine Committee also pointed out these risks.

Bottom line prognostication: OMB will push for an Orion development on "life support" funding levels, tethered to the schedule readiness for orbital demonstrations of advanced technologies.

I like this proposal as well since it has a cocnrete plan for going beyond LEO. I have to echo spaceman though in that my biggest concern is that we can't afford this on the current budget. I also like that any extended Shuttle flights or Shuttle C are driven by the need to launch ISS modules for the exploration vehicle as opposed to just keep flying because we need to keep flying.

Keith,

Assuming this to be true, it's excellent news and a compromise I can most definitely get behind and support 100%.

Sustainability and people support are key for a space program. Costellation was killed because of this and Apollo's end came sooner cause the same reason. I wonder if the Shuttle-C cargo would be re-usable, because otherwise it seems very expensive cause its engine.

Sounds interesting. I'd like to know how this policy relates to (A) destinations and (B) jobs.

A. Shuttle stays and goes to station only.
Shuttle HLV carries cargo to station only or can it go beyond LEO? (sounds like LEO only)
Commercial companies (spacex, orbital) carry cargo to station only. Maybe one day carry people...
New government EELV carries people to station or can it go beyond LEO? (sounds LEO only)

It sounds like what we would have is a bunch of things all going to station: shuttle, shuttle HLV, commercial, and government EELV.

I guess this "spacecraft" is the only thing to get us beyond LEO. What do you mean assembled at the ISS? Doesn't it take a lot of people here alot of time to build a spacecraft? Now, 5 people on the ISS in spacesuits will build a spacecraft? I need more detail on that one !

So, for destinations, it sounds like a BUNCH of station stuff and a spacecraft to go where?

B. Sounds like shuttle workforce stays in tact.
Who builds the shuttle HLV? USA contractor, or since that would be development and not operations would that fall under the Constellation folks?
EELV government vehicle. What is meant by this? EELV has always been considered "commercial" by the Augustine commission and something external to NASA. So what type of EELV will NASA build? Once again, who builds this... USA contractor, other contractor, Constellation folks

KSC is going to a new paradigm (or they were) before the budget announcement. They were awarding the EGLS contract (operations) and ESC contract (Engineering services) and that was going to consolidate the contracts here down to two.

As everyone knows, EGLS was cancelled but they went forward with the ESC contract which is already closed to bidding and will be awarded this summer.

Under the assumption the shuttle is extended I would think they may re-open the EGLS contract since we will still have operations at KSC. So, you would have either most likely USA or Boeing doing operations.

The Constellation contract was put under the ESC contract which is a definate going forward. So, that's why I wonder if this new ESC contract will build Shuttle HLV or the government EELV.

Typically, the EGLS contract is just operations and therefore would not build/design new vehicles.

If this scenario between the two contracts is true, then it sounds like both Shuttle and Constellation workers will have plenty of future work.


We don't need Orion-lite on EELV while also funding Merchant-7 human spaceflight projects AND continued (and risky) Shuttle ops. It makes more sense to launch Orion from this Shuttle-C (or inline HLV) and revert to the 2-launch configuration (vs. the 1.5 'CxP' option) for BEO missions.

Also, there's no sense in using ISS as a 'pitstop' for BEO. This looks to me as the ISS folks just looking for reasons to justify operations beyond 2020. After that date ISS ops should be commercial including international operators. We can't aford another $100B or so to what in essence would be ISS-2.

Finally, who assumes responsibility if there's a 3rd catastrophic Shuttle failure? Bolden? Obama?

This is hilarious on so many levels.....

But the main one is, this is essentially identical to the 1989 NASA "90-Day Study" in response to GHWB's "Space Exploration Initiative".

At least someone is up on their history.

I also find the Orion-lite aspect a little troubling. I can understand why it's there, NASA wants more than one potential vendor for commercial LEO crew access and right now there's only SpaceX making a run for the contract. (Pick up the pace Orbital) Plus the Orion-lite option placates those who are scared something bad will happen if NASA itself isn't directly supervising LEO crew access efforts. But, because of the way my mind works, I can foresee a situation where Boeing might be tempted to underprice their LEO system in order to starve their commercial competition. They could do it by making up the difference on the pricing of the other systems bought by NASA. But NASA would have to know that's what is happening and would have to go along with it. I hope policies are put in place that can minimize this sort of thing. The old boy network might make that a problem though. Boeing and NASA have been working together for a long time...

Seriously, I hope someone keeps a bright light shining on this aspect of the program. And I hope they starting hollering if it looks like there's hanky-panky going on.

There's something else I was wondering about. I didn't notice any mention about the SSMEs in the possible compromise. Has anyone heard anything about them? Are they going to start producing SSMEs again, maybe a less expensive version? Or are they going to go in another direction?

Is there a destination in there anywhere ? Are we going to actually land somewhere - moon or Mars. Without a destination this is still not complete.

Folks:

It must be a good plan because even here on Nasa Watch there seems to be a consensus (of sorts). Yes, building a true spacecraft is the most significant part as far as I'm concerned. A new way to space.... hmmm. New Ways To Space. NWTP.

No? Oh well. But hey, a name is important. I just couldn't wrap my head around name of the last program (or it's spacecraft). Again, any ideas?

Does anyone out there know enough about orbital dynamics to describe how a beyond earth orbit spacecraft can get back to earth orbit? Are we stuck with aerobraking? Do we carry big engines and lots of fuel? Can we save on fuel but lose on time by lowering the spacecrafts orbit in stages?

Just curious.

tinker

And how will this get paid for? I'm guessing by slashing the R&D funding. Ops wins again.

This is a good compromise. The continuation of Orion, a system designed with expansibility and open architecture as influencers, should allow for future capability improvement over the Lite version. Orion is a pathfinder that gives some measurement of reality for commercial developers in areas like supportability, operability, and availability. The addition of a habitable cargo tug system that stays in space is an important piece of infrastructure that is also expansible and increases launch site utility worldwide, another pathfinder for commercial space in an area where there is a sustainable market now and in the future (servicing, fueling, positioning, cargo transport, salvage, etc).

I'm not sure that the Shuttle-C is sustainable without major expense, not only for retooling ET production, but also for propulsion for the orbiter replacement on the side mount. EELV roadmaps to heavy capability should be revisited in the trade space, especially if they are to be the Orion launch vehicle.

Lowly Contractor - you're so right, let's not take any "risks" at all here. We probably shouldn't try to leave Mother Earth again, it's too risky.

Puh-LEEZE. No matter WHAT option we go with, it will be RISKY. The "international operators" are risks too - who assumes responsibility if there's a catastrophic failure there? Obama? Bolden? You?

I'm so sick of hearing about the "risky" shuttle program. Its track record is incredible, considering the fact that we've had 130+ launches with two failures (that SHOULD have been avoided). Do you think the Soyuz is safer? SpaceX? A human-rated Atlas V or Delta IV? Do you REALLY?

Stop whining about the "risky" shuttle program. Right now, it is the SAFEST way to get our astronauts to the ISS, and I don't see that changing for MANY years.

I hope these rumors are true, and I know the astronauts would MUCH rather ride shuttle than any of the proposed alternatives. At least the ones I have spoken to feel that way, and very strongly at that.

@tchad49
> One thing puzzles me about the side-mount shuttle-derived HLV concept. Why use shuttle main engines?

The ATH solids generate a lot of heat; so much so that the engines used on the Shuttle need special cooling mechanism so they don't melt down. This, by the way, was always the fatal flaw in Ares V/Direct designs: if you move the engines farther down, the problem just gets worse. The Direct guys were always changing the configuration of their liquid engines, and NASA believes that the problem either isn't solvable or too expensive to solve.

There was work done on a cheaper, disposable shuttle main engine. Once they buzz through their inventory of already built engines, I'm sure we'll see those used.

@lowlycontractor
> Also, there's no sense in using ISS as a 'pitstop' for BEO...

The space professionals are going to have to get into of the habit of optimizing for cost and not capabilities. Using the ISS as a pitstop makes perfect sense as it's already built, has facilities that would prove useful in the assembly of a lunar transit vehicle, and while not in the optimum orbit for lunar trips, it's not in a bad one either.

Also, as far as hyperbolic reentry saving weight over LEO-LLO-LEO transits, what saves the most weight is for the lunar transit vehicle to carry only enough fuel for one-way trips and refilling in both Earth and Lunar orbits. Gives us an immediate excuse to put a fuel depot in lunar orbit, EML1 or EML2. Plus we don't have to trash the lunar transit vehicle every time we make a trip.

Kudos Keith for placing your prognostications on the record. (Even with caveats!) I am sure that there will be some surprises. This is, after all, a defining political 'Moment.'
Clearly the Space Island Group have been secretly lobbying all this time...

Seriously though, is a Deep Space Vehicle in the budget? Perhaps the Chinese will help!
The real problem arises, what do we call her?
Aries?

And pehaps, just perhaps, President Obama DID get to see this.
It's time to drill up!

:-O

The "International Space Ship" !!

We'll put together a modular spaceship, and go explore cis-lunar space together! This could work.

Any "compromise" that continues the Shuttle infrastructure will kill NASA's future unless it is funded completely with additional budget money. That means at least an additional $3 billion per year plus whatever development money is needed for Shuttle-C, etc.

The new initiatives in the FY2011 budget are crucial for NASA's future. If you make them compete with the most powerful money sucking machine NASA ever built, you'll save a few jobs for a few years, then the whole enterprise will crash and burn when people realize that NASA is once again going nowhere.

Dennis is right about the significance of the in-space vehicle, if funds are actually provided to develop it and especially if it is designed for more than one use. (Since it will not land or re-enter, and since it would presumably return to the space station in an undamaged condition, ready to be re-fueled, the potential for re-use exists as soon as the vehicle exists). The idea of by-passing the use of a large expendable Orion exploration capsule in favor of an in-space vehicle could represent a turning point in our thinking on the design and use of space vehicles.

Exactly

It makes no sense whatsoever to build a vehicle on the ground that goes all the way to the Moon or Mars and comes back. The transition to a true space vehicle is a major turning point in thinking about space architectures.

I have always found it humorous that people talk about lowering the price of access to space and have focused on the launch vehicle from the Earth. Since the cost to orbit is $20,000 per kg (using STS numbers) and the cost to lunar orbit is $100,000 per kg, where can the most savings be obtained?

We have wasted far too much time in optimizing the fire and smoke part of the architecture and far too little in looking at the system to see where cost reductions and reusability makes the most financial sense.

Apollo on geritol was never going to get us there, ever.

The space shuttle has a 99% plus launch success rate. And a 100% successful launch rate since 1988, almost 22 consecutive years of successful launches(105 consecutive successful launches). So there's no logical reason not to place a launch capsule on a shuttle-C. The Delta IV heavy has only been launched three times.

The US needs to have its own space station positioned in orbit for easy access from US launch sites in order to economically utilize a reusable XM (exploratory module). The space shuttle could easily do that by launching a Bigelow Sundancer space station into an appropriate orbit to serve as a way station for beyond LEO missions utilizing an XM.

Instead of continuing to fund the ISS at over $2 billion a year, I'd fund the ISS at a billion a year and fund a NSS (National Space Station) program at about a billion a year.

Marcel F. Williams

A lot of people saying they like the compromise

Not a lot of people saying they want to pay the extra $3,000,000,000 or more every year. I wonder why that is

One wonders if this was really where they wanted to wind up, and overshot in the budget to set up compromising back to their real objective. Otherwise, the fight would have been exclusively over saving Ares.

I can at least see this as being a likely version of what NASA's going in position was before OSTP and OMB weighed in.

over on that "other forum" ( nasaspaceflight)I have been advocating much the same thing as stated in this article( rumor :)) , but shuttle C would be a decade and half long transition to EELV and perhaps if it works out fuel depots.
Shuttle c for cargo only is right on the money!
use EELV architecture as the carrier
Orion lite on existing EELV is right on the money!
There is an aerospace report over on the space policy online site and/or on the national academy's decadel survey website that paints a bleak picture on human rated EELV concepts, they will work well but $ 6 billion will only get you Atlas and Delta developed not every one on the new space bandwagon.
But we do want to encourage COTS D...............but how?
shuttle c will cost $ 6 billion to develop
shuttle c will mean the several billion dollars to keep that vast standing army at the cape
Orion lite will cost...............the cancellation of COTS D ?
This fact has been posted by many of you above...
I want the presidents budget adhered to! Shuttle c might be our stop gap measure in till we see if the fuel depot DEMO works, If it does we go with a shuttle c combined with a high tempo EELV launch campaign in-till we phase out shuttle C in faver of a super heavy EELV at less then 100 MT payload, or a shuttle C or inline that uses shuttle ET and EELV CBC's
this compromise will not happen! congress will not fund it.It means more then the Augustine commissions recommendation of a $ 3 billion increase to the NASA budgett

"DIRECT and other "inline" shuttle-derived concepts are no longer being given serious consideration. With specific regard to DIRECT, despite their voluminous and detailed claims, the costs that they depend upon to make their case are simply incorrect and not credible - and NASA knows this (they checked with the companies involved)."

How so? What on earth makes you think after the debacle that was ARES, that these people can be relied upon to give an unbiased and accurate analysis of "actual" costs. I suspect that the companies in question realized that the DIRECT budgeting severely limited their own profits. I also consider that because it would come under NASA auspices, that it will not be just the companies but NASA itself as well which sends estimates out the window. As an example review the OSC/Pegasus contract...by the time NASA had finished making changes of dubious necessity, construction and operating costs for the vehicle had virtually doubled.
However, with Shuttle C, excepting the 5-segment SRB's, growth is very limited, whereas with the NLS'92/DIRECT configuration growth follows naturally - and it can be done gradually as funding allows. It also is going to be difficult to design an Orion-type HSF configuration for the piggy-back mode. That's why I support DIRECT as the HLV direction(sorree!) of choice: it's not as if this wasn't a NASA design to begin with: it was, but I consider meant less profit for the Aerospace contractors: ATK in particular.
As it is, as requirements expand, the current EELV are going to be stretched to the limit for HSF craft payload and destinations. Sooner or later, for BEO-HSF, larger more capable vehicles, will be required until that STAR TREK techno-breakthrough comes on line. This will in the interim, necessitate re-design, upgrades, testing etc. That of course will not mean cost increases, now will it?

sb023, your questions are reasonable, but I guess I am more optimistic than you about building a spacecraft in space. First, isn't this what we have done with ISS (maybe not a "spacecraft" per se, but certainly a complex assembly job)? Given the delays and the amount of time some of that hardware stayed in storage, the actual physical assembly of ISS is arguably a success story for NASA, and therefore something to build upon. And second, if you are going to assemble something in space, doesn't it make sense to build it where you already have systems in place that can monitor and test components, and where there will already be regularly scheduled flights to bring up specialists, or replacement parts? IMHO, assembly at ISS seems to me to make good use of existing experience and planned launch capacity. But I am no expert. Thoughts?

EDIT
I almost forgot!
over on that other forum I have been advocating the use of ISS derived modules as flexible path mission "vehicles"
what is the difference between a ISS-2 at L2 performing fuel depot and a public engaging large astronomy mission support project and a interplanetary vehicle?
not much really........the L2 mission could be funded first (spirals anyone?) the engines to send a ISS-3 to phobos after words second.
If I where the president I would announce the compromise if any and that the GOAL is..............drum roll..........Phobos using flexible path! lunar flybys and L2/NEO along the way yes.
over on that other forum I ask budget questions such as what portion of the $6.5 billion shuttle C is expended on the silly idea of lofting Orion on the shuttle C? What would be the trade of using R-68 as one poster above asked with the carrier being a EELV upper stage(or ACES) But over on that other forum we are a tribal group and I do not fit in with any of the tribes :) rarely do my posts get answers because few are interested in compromise or are willing for there jobs to be less important then the goal or the national interests, some are torn between the two as I am.
I think the obama budget proposal says this..........
we will put, "critical path on its head!" we will fly a fuel depot DEMO flight asap! Don't get dizzy folks!only after that will we do trades on ET tank with Delta CBC's if fuel depot fails.If the depot works or if it does not the HLV engine budget will produce an engine for use by the entire community IE EELV for DOD/NASA/commercial and any HLV.Any HLV if needed will be modular with the human to LEO and beyond vehicle.IE shuttle D will be with a EELV CBC or will be replaced by a super EELV,but any HLV will be expensive, to be launched infrequently with payloads that do not lend themselves to being assembled.

I'll admit I'm still laughing hard about this. This is like an April Fools joke, but a few days late.

OK, an Orion Lite will be developed and placed on a human rated EELV. And a Shuttle C will be "rapidly" developed. Again, I can't imagine the costs of any of this are accurately know since they are influenced by the R&D schedule. And lets not forget NASA has to cover the $2.2 billion a year for the continuation of the shuttle (not counting ET startup costs) and NASA has to pay for the operation of the space station. And who knows if NASA will get the money they ask for or need. This is a train wreck waiting to happen.

However, with Shuttle C, excepting the 5-segment SRB's, growth is very limited, whereas with the NLS'92/DIRECT configuration growth follows naturally - and it can be done gradually as funding allows.

Except that with lunar ISRU, you never need to build anything beyond Shuttle C and the next generation beyond that is an RLV due to the flight rate demand.

RLV's, the Station, a cislunar cycler, a lunar SSTO, an outpost making fuel and metals and ISRU equals a real space program. That is where we can be in less than 20 years. Large HLV's are an impediment to this, not an enabler. The shuttle C is sized right for payload and can be fielded long before any of the other systems, no matter how much they blather about it.

The payload penalty to the station is 6.3%, which is by far outweighed by the feature that it is there and can serve as a base and anchor point for BEO missions. Within the next 24 months we will have five cargo vehicles qualified to go there, along with hopefully two human rated vehicles (with the X-37 as dark horse).

There is much more that can be done from ISS as well. Time will unfold what that is......

I'm skeptical.

Me too. I find it hard to believe we can do this on the existing budget (or even a slight increment). And I thought significant parts of the Shuttle procurement had already been shut down?

nullifies the cost control of the new plan by maintaining the STS infrastructure.

Well, if the cargo thing is not re-enterable (re-usable), that would cut the costs a fair amount (Shuttle TPS check is a big cost factor).

Although if it's not re-enterable, either they're throwing away complex, expensive SSME's on every flight - or planning on using a different engine. This is really going to be simpler/faster/cheaper than Aries-5?

Shuttle C may not be the best most cost effective way to loft interplanetary space probes however it might be a, "not to be used to often" way to loft a flagship astronomy mission to L2! even in this case a human tended flexible path mission combined with fuel tanker/fuel depot might make combining the two make some sense, please remember the Augustine commission stated that mixing Aries lite( but side mount?) with EELV did not make budgetary sense.

I would like a aerospace report please................
side mount for cargo with EELV derived carrier stage AND humans on EELV with a common upper stage with the carrier

Oddly enough, for a change it looks like political compromise might get to the best answer. While this may not be the ideal space program one would design from scratch, given where we are at today and the resources available, this appears to be the optimal path forward in all the elements described. I sure hope this truly is where the power-that-be are headed and not just wishful thinking.

By the way, it's worth noting that the real failure of the Direct plans is the forced linking of crew & cargo launches. The economically efficient flight rates for crew and for heavy cargo missions will never sink up in a manner that is viable for combined flights. That is one of the biggest fundamental problems with shuttle. So a big please, please, please to all you Direct guys - just live with what you can get and get busy with a minimal development Shuttle C instead of whining that it isn't perfect.

Mal Peterson, page 71 may have conflicting meaning.
Human rating an EXISTING EELV may not be such a high risk venture, human rating in this decade a new space venture might be a high risk project. see the NASA documents over at the decadel survey page at the national academy's
The Augustine commission I believe was operating under the premise that a beyond LEO human space craft would need a back up if...............Orion EELV failed
so.............side mount is derived form a human rated vehicle yes? :)
EELV is delta and atlas low risk if you ask me

From the proposed compromise I took the meaning that medium and heavy lift cargo rockets would not be man-rated at all. That the only launch vehicles that would be man-rated would be the smaller varieties that would launch the Orion-lite, Dragon, and etc. The LEO taxis. Did I get this wrong?

I no longer see the point in paying to man-rate the Shuttle-C or any other medium/heavy lifter.

"Except that with lunar ISRU, you never need to build anything beyond Shuttle C and the next generation beyond that is an RLV due to the flight rate demand."

How do you know that? Look at ARES V which soon had to be upgraded to accommodate unanticipated payload requirements. That's why growth is essential for a launch vehicle.

If we go with RLVs, payload fraction drops by a substantial margin. Note the MF of the late-lamented Kistler K-1; by far the best RLV engineering design IMO: with simple turnaround operations and launch facilities.Increasing the launch frequency only amortizes the cost; it doesn't actually reduce the overall cost. The ISS itself is a paen to that: Launch costs swallowing the major fraction of the overall price of the station far exceeding operating and hardware costs. All of what you described is needed in any case. How do you determine HLV are an impediment? Sucking up development costs? The essence of DIRECT is minimal development but by the same token, progression.
No one is going to kid me that once the "new" research on HLV alternatives is complete(it's been going on for 50+years now; what's to stop it?) that more funds beyond the $6billion allocated in F2011 won't be needed?
X-37? Great! EELV meat and potatoes-once the process of man-rating...ICGO&O but in truth HLV simplifies things and offers some slack.
ISS I agree except that it's set up as a Research station, not a launch platform. We might as well build a new one - and in a 28deg. incl. orbit while we're at it; less x-range component and higher payload capacity.
"Time will unfold..." Indutibly!

Hmmm...the Shuttle-C thing is intriguing, but nobody has asked yet: How many SSME engines do we have lying about ? One of the seasoned engines currently flying on Discovery is on its 8th trip to orbit . Shuttle-C throws those pricey babies away with the Lox/H2 bathwater. Would we keep buiding more SSME's or transition to RS-68's or RS-84's ?

By the way , before the USSR flew its successful Buran shuttle on the back of its magnificent all-liquid fueled Energia booster back in 1988, the big booster had previously flown in its own " Shuttle C" sidemounted payload configuration. Energia attempted to launch an 80-ton "Polyus" stealth black space battle station in that configuration; May of 1987. The booster performed perfectly ; the payload did not, which is a good thing since it was a massive weapons and bomb platform capable of defending itself.

Why is it that people are still defending Constellation and blaming the president for cancelling it? Shuttle should have never been cancelled...but made cheaper. The Russians have been flying Soyuz for nearly half a century and it works fantastic...George W Bush budgeted Constellation like he budgeted the Iraq war, that's the plain truth. Yet, people are calling for the head of this president. It's admirable that he's willing to deal with it at extreme measures.

Shuttle can easily be used to assemble a interplanetery ship in conjunction with ISS. Don't take my opinion though, it's not like I've worked as technical lead on both projects. This whole American hypercapatalistic idea that new is better applied to space needs to stop. Continuing Constellation is like trading in a Mercedes 1980's W123 diesel platform for a Kia Rio with no A/C and fancy digital gizmos. Which one do you think is worthwhile?

How do you know that? Look at ARES V which soon had to be upgraded to accommodate unanticipated payload requirements. That's why growth is essential for a launch vehicle.

Payloads always increase in size. Gilruth claimed in 1962 that the the Apollo lunar module would weigh no more than 17,000 lbs. Von Braun knew differently and added the fifth engine to the Saturn.

Ares V began with no margin, which swiftly became negative margin.

ISRU, including metals as well as fuel allows the mix of payloads to change. Today we have to build rovers, habs, and everything here on the ground and ship it to the Moon, vibrating it all to hell on the way up so that the design has to take the shaking.

With metals technology that mankind has done successfully for at least 3000 years (flat plate, rolled billets, simple forms), the metals won at the same time that oxygen is made (for every ton of oxygen you get 2.4 tons of iron for example, depending on the process). You can make radiation proof habitation systems, chassis for vehicles, and many other useful things like dump truck beds, scraper blades, and many other equipment forms.

Today we have laser welding (developed by Lawrence Livermore Labs) and laser machining, that allows a simple means of cutting and joining metals, which in vacuum will have far stronger bonds than on the Earth.

Fantasy you say? The only difference is vacuum. Many of the materials are there and the regolith itself is up to 1% nickel iron from any random sample from 4 billion years of bombardment.

If we do this, then the mix of payloads changes. No longer do we have to send up every single rover, hab, or other equipment as a ground built entity. We send up computers, motors, wiring, and other gear that is not easily built up there. Without lots of ground integrated large payloads, the need for an Ares V class HLV disappears. Have you actually ever gone through and done a five year manifest for a lunar outpost? Eighty percent of the mass lifted to LEO is fuel to send the other 20% of the hardware to the Moon.

There are other ways to skin this cat that gets us farther down the road than an Ares V class HLV ever would.

The goal is to build a space faring civilization, not a big rocket.

Where did this overzealous confidence come from? How has it been proven private contractors can deliver humans into orbit safer than shuttle? Shuttle is going on 130+ flights....Anybody on one of the contractor vehicle safety boards will tell you they are novices at vehicle safety requirements for humans (without naming specifics). It's likely going to cost them a fortune to get in compliance at a higher TBD cost than current shuttle operations.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. That should be the rule of the day.

"The Shuttle-C will be a direct upgrade to the existing Space Shuttle Orbiter system with only the Orbiter replaced with engines and a cargo carrier. Everything else remains the way it is now."

Hmmm, the current ET for the Shuttle is the Super Light Weight Tank (SLWT). The design for it started in 1991 and the first one flew in 1998. To cut down the mass, the ET has a varying factor of safety (FS) which ranges from 1.2 to 1.4 depending on how well the loads are understood. The original studies of the Shuttle-C by NASA were in the beginning of the 1990's so I'm guessing they looked at the Light Weight Tank (not SLWT). The light weight tanks have a FS of 1.4 everywhere. So there is very little structural margin left in the SLWT. Next, the aerodynamic loads between the Shuttle+ET and Shuttle-C+ET are completely different and the loads at the mating points are also different. So I'm guessing either the ET gets redesigned (thus two ETs will exist, a Shuttle one and a Shuttle-C one) or the performance of Shuttle-C will be reduced so the FS of the SLWT is not exceeded. I'd love to talk to the person who originally said "Everything remains the way it is now." to find out exactly what is going on.

Its more sensible to start with a 200 ton lifter that doesn't have an ounce to spare than to start with an 80 ton lifter that has room for expansion.

Development costs money. It costs less to make your fuel tanks bigger or add a motor if you do that from the start, rather than trying to badger it on years later.

Taking a hint from the shuttle program (that was supposed to get 5 segment boosters and engine upgrades decades ago)
Its more likely that what we buy initially is what we will get stuck with when the costs of upgrading become clear.

If you change paradigms to a reusable space-only BEO vehicle, building it at the ISS is fine. Because you can leave from the "factory" and go whereever, and you don't have to come back to the ISS every time. Your LEO fuel depot for ongoing operations can be in a different LEO.

"This is the consensus that seems to forming in and among NASA, OSTP, and NSC..."

Keith;

Did someone tell you this was the consensus, or did you actually talk to a consensus of senior managers at each of these agencies? Maybe you are right, and a Shuttle-C will emerge from the trash heap along with the leprechaun's pot of gold. Still, I would be surprised, since people who were working Shuttle-C are now more interested in Project M. And the buzz words are NEO and Lunar precursor. The money just isn't there for Shuttle derived.

Editor's note: of course I have sources. I would not write anything otherwise.

and in a 28deg. incl. orbit while we're at it; less x-range component and higher payload capacity.

Excellent point; I keep forgetting about the ISS orbital plane. So much for using ISS as a staging point...

@billy L:
"No matter WHAT option we go with, it will be RISKY. The "international operators" are risks too - who assumes responsibility if there's a catastrophic failure there?"

That's a very good question, I just saw an article earlier this week on PRLog that discussed some interesting thoughts on the subject of risk, sustainability, and affordability.

http://prlog.org/10609214

Wow, and so if this is the road map being hashed around, then how are we going to pay for this? The last time I looked, NASA was on a budget.

Aerobraking is your friend. With present technology, it is the obvious linchpin to serious and economically sustainable operations beyond LEO.

"ISS I agree except that it's set up as a Research station, not a launch platform. We might as well build a new one - and in a 28deg. incl. orbit while we're at it; less x-range component and higher payload capacity."

This is why I advocate cutting ISS funds (currently $2 billion a year) in half so that we can spend the other billion funding a NSS (National Space Station) program in order to deploy a space station, or stations, in a more appropriate orbit for space craft launched from US soil.

We need a space station that can be used as a way station for beyond LEO missions.

Marcel F. Williams

"[...] this is essentially identical to the 1989 NASA "90-Day Study" in response to GHWB's "Space Exploration Initiative".
At least someone is up on their history."


Yes, you are essentially correct. And the painful truth is that this should have been the perfectly obvious correct choice when Constellation was started, but instead we got vagueness followed by Griffin's "90" day ESAS disaster.

Do you know the dirty little secret of why that happened? It came down to the ESAS participants thinking it was impossible to make a reusable aerobrake and thus the SEI economics broke down. Thing is, it's not impossible, it just needs that one know enough history to recall some of the heat shield technology first developed all the way back on the X-20 Dynasoar...

Let's just build a bunch of really expensive toys with no eye toward long term R&D and go... where exactly? No lander + no BEO tech = not going anywhere. I suppose contractors will like all the busy work.

OK, I did some digging. In "Space Shuttle, the History of the National Space Transportation System" the total cost to develop and certify the super light weight tank (SLWT) is approximately $172.5 million. And, the contract value for section J-17 of NAS8-36200 (SLWT) (http://foia.msfc.nasa.gov/reading.html) is $105 million. So I figure $175 million is a good ballpark figure for designing an ET. And, Michoud Assembly Facility didn't need to make any major changes when switching from the LWT to the SWLT.

So why are the DIRECT costs inaccurate? Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the DIRECT band wagon but I would like to know what backs some of these statements.

For all of you planning 2nd Gen Shuttles, On Orbit Fuel Depots, In situ resource utilization, Hotels at L2, and coverting the ISS to build the next Battlestar...please sit down, calm down, close the Heinlein book, pop a Procardia, and put a cool damp cloth on what must be your throbbing head. Unless you're an alchemist and can turn lead into gold, we need to finagle four things out of the green eye shade crew.

1. A spacecraft capable of both LEO and BEO operations.
2. A true HLV with > 120 MT to LEO and a decent faring size; and we should man rate the damn thing.
3. Continue to fly the STS at a modest manifest to the benefit of American intrests in space, and that of workforce retention.
4. And leave the one good thing in the Obama Plan alone...the R&D money.

If our leaders aren't willing to come that far, then maybe we're not a great nation anymore, and like the Chinese of old, we should sail home and burn our boats

Martin, If only it was only the cost of a tank. Changing one tank material to another is relatively easy. For Direct you have to redesign the tank structurally to take the load from the side to the end. Then you need to design the propellant feed system, and a thrust structure on the end of the tank. Add the usual redundancy and isolation valves required by NASA for human rating while you're at it. Then there is the inter-stage structure to support the upper stage. Of, an upper stage! That is another tank and propellant feed system, and inter-stage for the payload. After that, there will be the propulsion systems themselves (new engines for both stages). Even if you only adapt existing engines (say SSME, J-2, RL-10?) they have to be tailored to the performance and feed characteristics of the tank-feed systems. Now, we add control systems, hydraulic, pressurants, pneumatics, valves and the computers to fly it all. Suddenly, that $100M for a "tank" looks like a tidy little downpayment on a real development program. The contract for the original SSME was close to $2B current year dollars. The Constellation Contract for the J-2X is about half of that. Getting to an expendable version of the SSME will be in the same ballpark. We're starting to make Ares look affordable now.

That, Mr Martin, is why it costs so much.

"This is why I advocate cutting ISS funds (currently $2 billion a year) in half so that we can spend the other billion funding a NSS (National Space Station) program in order to deploy a space station, or stations, in a more appropriate orbit for space craft launched from US soil."

Remember 'Station C'?
;-)

So much common sense and rational thought in this thread.... very refreshing for a change.

"So why are the DIRECT costs inaccurate?"

See my previous comments regarding the fundamental flaw of DIRECT being the incompatibility of economically efficient flight rates for crew missions and heavy cargo missions. The inevitable failure of DIRECT as a sustainable architecture has nothing to do with development costs.

To those who say that ISS is built only as a research platform and cannot be used for operations....

Here are the vehicles that now can or will be able to visit the station.

Shuttle
Soyuz
Proton--whatever payloads the Russians want to fly
Progress
ATV
HTV
Cygnus
Dragon.
Delta IV
Atlas V

These are all there to support the station. The mass penalty for flying from 28.5 degrees to ISS is a maximum of 6.3%, from the Delta IV payload planners guide.

The station has multiple robotic arms, multiple airlocks, several docking ports.

AND IS A $100 BILLION DOLLAR TAXPAYER INVESTMENT.

What part of all of this do you guys not understand?

The Hanger that was part of the SEI program was an afterthought and is not necessary to support the on orbit assembly of large BEO space systems. We have proven aerobraking multiple times at Mars and we have done aerocapture to the surface of the Earth through a very narrow entry window multiple times from hyperbolic orbits.

The Delta V coming into the ISS orbit from LLO or L1 is exactly the same as it is to 28.5 degrees. It is ~100 meters per second LESS delta V from Lunar polar orbit to the ISS than to 28.5 degrees.

For any form of ion propulsion, it is BETTER to go from 5.16 degrees on the climb out or return due to the more favorable solar beta angles that allow for full sun operations of these systems.

There are so many amazing misconceptions and ill formed opinions about the station and its capabilities.

You people keep talking about saving money and yet want to spend tens of billions for a new station at 28.5 degrees. It boggles the mind, it does.

This sounds like a Compromise designed to minimize the amount of votes that the Democratic Congress may lose in November. NASA does a study, then produces a plan that just happens to get approved by the President in September, 6 to 8 weeks before elections! Then come January 2011, a new budget is produced that shows the pre-election plan can not be met by the money available, the plan is modified and the NASA and contractor RIFs follow. But Congress doesn't have to worry, 2011 is not an election year.

Not to mention you need something to stack the entire assemble on as the existing launch platforms won't work.

This is why I advocate cutting ISS funds (currently $2 billion a year) in half so that we can spend the other billion funding a NSS (National Space Station) program in order to deploy a space station, or stations, in a more appropriate orbit for space craft launched from US soil.

Say what? How much did ISS cost over the last two decades? If we build another one (even a smaller one), that will suck up the NASA budget for the next decade and a half.

You people keep talking about saving money and yet want to spend tens of billions for a new station at 28.5 degrees.

Uhh, no. Some people are, others of us realize it's not financially feasible (see previous).

I hadn't realized the orbital penalty was ~7%; that's significant, but not un-supportable.

Aerobraking can take a while, though,(multiple orbits, which are pretty large to begin with) no? For a manned vehicle that means more consumables (food, even if you're recycling oxygen/water). Not saying that the math doesn't still come out positive, mind, but I just haven't done it.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.27d504fa90c41ebd1553e2277f52b361.8a1&show_article=1

Why would they do this if they were going to extend the shuttle?

Something isn't right...

In any event.... Baikonur ain't in Russian and Soyuz is about ready to lift off from Kourou. So how about a nice cup of plane change?

"The Shuttle-C will be a direct upgrade to the existing Space Shuttle Orbiter system with only the Orbiter replaced with engines and a cargo carrier. Everything else remains the way it is now."

Shuttle-C is a Trojan horse for Shuttle Orbiter life extension.

"Everything else remains the way it is now."

Make that, "Everything will remain the way it is now at Kentucky Fried Space Center."

a plan that just happens to get approved by the President in September, 6 to 8 weeks before elections!

Plan, schman. Most people in those communities are savvy enough to know that such statements are worth the paper they are written on, and the important thing is Congressional action (and, more specifically, Appropriations).

And you can bet that's not going to happen before the election - the Democrats have much more important things to work on while they still have those large Congressional majorities.

So NASA will continue to drift, without a national agreeement on direction.

"AND IS A $100 BILLION DOLLAR TAXPAYER INVESTMENT."

At best that's not the whole truth, and at worse it's deliberate disinformation.

Yes, it's been a $100B investment **BUT** with design-life limitations just like Skylab, Salyut, or MIR. Bottom line, beyond 2020 you have to start replacing ALL the ISS modules as a substantial cost to the U.S. taxpayer, probably another $100B or more between 2020-2030. That cost CANNOT be justified in terms of ISS's science-return-on-investment ... and don't count on the 'internationals' to do much beyond ESA and JAXA replacing their own modules, and expect even less from the Russians.

So fine, let's fund ISS operations but not a penny more in taxpayer money to replace aging hardware.

First, I asked why DIRECT costs were inaccurate. You did not address that. You gave your opinion on why DIRECT is flawed. Second, as you stated, you're basing your opinion on the assumption that DIRECT will be carrying a crew. But if inline is not carrying a crew, what is your opinion then?

So what's the difference between DIRECT without a crew and sidemount without a crew? And lets not forget what I stated earlier, it cost $175 million (in early/mid 90's money) for Lock-Mart to redesign the ET from the ground up and that the factor of safety (FS) on the ET in some areas is 1.2. And, I haven't seen anyone refute my statements about the ET. So the probability to me seems high that either the performance of the sidemount suffers because of the FS on the SLWT or the SLWT gets redesigned.

Finally, the statement was made that the DIRECT costs were inaccurate. Well, what aspects of the cost were inaccurate? Specifics please. These types of vague undefined statements are as bad as what got us into trouble with Ares in the first place.

Simple metric for NASA achievement:
Person-hours in space times distance from Earth (surface)

Simple metric for NASA efficiency:
Person-hours in space times distance from Earth (surface) divided by (inflation-adjusted) dollars (or billion dollars)

For all of you planning 2nd Gen Shuttles, On Orbit Fuel Depots, In situ resource utilization, Hotels at L2, and coverting the ISS to build the next Battlestar...please sit down, calm down, close the Heinlein book, pop a Procardia, and put a cool damp cloth on what must be your throbbing head. Unless you're an alchemist and can turn lead into gold, we need to finagle four things out of the green eye shade crew.

I challenge you to an open and public debate on this subject.

You simply are living in the past to assert that that ISRU is a fantasy. I know that Norm Augustine shares your opinion, but that does not mean that it is true.

Things to be debated.

Requirements for heavy lift.

Feasibility of ISRU, oxygen, metals, primitive metals utilization (slabs, beams, casts).

Are you game to put your knowledge where your mouth is?

I stated that redesigning the SLWT from the ground up (i.e. they reduced the factor of safety) cost $175 million in mid 1990 dollars. This included solving the problems with welding the new allow. And you did say changing tank material was easy (i.e. Lock-Mart had no problems changing their their milling machines to account for the changes in isogrid deminsions) So thrust structures and tank redesign probably is not a big deal. Yet this is one area some individuals focus on as being an area of uncertainty. But I'm skeptical and I don't believe that much cost inaccuracies lie there.

So what aspect about the DIRECT costs are inaccurate?

Now I'm not proposing that DIRECT get selected for a cargo only vehicle. And I do agree with you that your others points are things that make rockets expensive.

But what makes sidemount better than inline? And, whoever answers this, please don't say that sidemount has an advantage since it uses the existing shuttle ET unless you can show that sidemount is compatible with the existing factor of safety on the SLWT. And please, in regards to the ET, don't point to the Shuttle-C studies in the late 80's and early 90's unless you can show that the studies were using the SLWT instead of the LWT.

First of all, there's no logical reason just to have just one grand centralized microgravity space that can accommodate only a few scientist. Multiple instant space stations are a lot safer and can accommodate a lot more scientist and tourist.

Secondly, for a beyond LEO mission, you're not going to launch a massive EDS vehicle into orbit and then pay a 7% penalty by having it go to the ISS before beginning a beyond LEO journey.

And eventually we're also going to need space stations at the Langrange points and space stations in orbit around Mars. And eventually, we're going to have to build space stations that produce artificial gravity. But continuing to pump billions every year into growing the ISS doesn't help you do that.

So I don't believe that there is any logic to the idea that we should only have one continuously growing international space station, mostly payed for by the US, and that has to be shared with the international community, especially one that is easier for Russian rockets to access than American rockets.


Marcel F. Williams

It took over 10 years of assembly to complete and abbreviated form of the ISS.

If anyone suggests replacing all of the modules , so as to keep it alive past 2020, you better start now! And you better develop a HLV that can lift up replacement modules that were designed to fit in the Shuttle Cargo Bay.

If the ISS lives past 2020, it's because folks will have sharpened their pencils, not because anyone put down money to replace modules.

Quote Martin "But what makes sidemount better than inline?"
Direct requires a massive amount of new infrastructure, MLP, VAB platforms, Pad Access.

A successful X-37B launch, which is scheduled for a couple of weeks from now, is going make the proposed Oldsmobile Orion (TM) space capsule seem like even more of an antique, Living History item.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3afabd254e-f731

OK, I wrote inline (meaning inline cargo) and you wrote Direct, but I assume we are talking about the same thing. Noting that my expertize is not with operations or the infrastructure required for a LV, I will take your answer as viable. Of course what this says is that the choice of a cargo LV (inline vs. sidemount) is not specifically about the rocket itself (design and manufacture).

In regards to Keith's statement about inaccurate DIRECT costs, I'm going to assume his statement is inaccurate unless countered by specifics, or I'll assume his statement is referring to inaccurate infrastructure/fixed costs. I'm sure Keith and members of the DIRECT team are reading this so they can speak up if they want to.

Of course all of this is very interesting when compared to the thought that Shuttle will be continued at $2.2 billion a year for two flights a year.


I'm confident that that there will be immediate funding for the development of an HLV. However, although the Shuttle C would obviously be cheaper to develop than DIRECT, I'm still not convinced that there is any consensus on as to which HLV concept will be decided on.

Marcel F. Williams

"It took over 10 years of assembly to complete and abbreviated form of the ISS."

Once again, here's a another example of a fact being twisted around to support the wrong conclusion.

It took 10 years but the delay was due for the most part to the Russians delays while the US, European, and Japanese hardware was sitting in storage at KSC. In fact, speaking of the Russians, come 2018 the 1st ISS module (Zarya - launched by a Proton rocket, not the Shuttle) will be 20 years old.

Replacement modules can just as well be designed to fit on other boosters and, of course, if there's not an HLV one can make up with more launches at, of course, higher overall cost.

Finally, 'sharpening pencils' is not going to stop the inexorable corrosion in space due to not water, or air, but ionizing radiation (whose effect will be particularly strong on the truss). The pen [pencil] is mighty but still cannot alter the laws of physics.

Bottom line, ISS (and 'commercial' human space) is re-entry-toast sometime after 2020 unless someone coughs up another $100B (+inflation). Not on my taxes.

Finally, 'sharpening pencils' is not going to stop the inexorable corrosion in space due to not water, or air, but ionizing radiation (whose effect will be particularly strong on the truss). The pen [pencil] is mighty but still cannot alter the laws of physics.

Huh? Please provide evidence that radiation damage is the life limiting factor on the structural design of ISS. From my understanding the life limiting factors are seals between modules, and the fittings on the plumbing. Probably in there would be the aging of the solar array alpha joints, but none of these things preclude extending the life of the system.

Inline and Direct have the same issues in this case. Inline actually id'ed the issue Direct ignore the issues. Side mount isn't better from the design aspect, it just gets things done a bit quicker and allows use of existing infrastructure to a large degree (mods still required). Side mount could be increased to a 5 segment booster as well, something that was discussed for shuttle to get out of Trans Atlantic Landing abort requirements, so in theory you could still increase payload on a side mount. If this is the path, I expect this to come up as some time.

"However, although the Shuttle C would obviously be cheaper to develop than DIRECT, I'm still not convinced that there is any consensus on as to which HLV concept will be decided on."

Can you please clarify. Do you mean Shuttle C would be cheaper to develop than inline cargo minus infrastructure costs? To me that is not obvious. I'm figuring they are in the same ballpark. But, I can see that the infrastructure cost for inline cargo would be more.

Not convinced Shuttle C is the way to go. We should not do Shuttle C since it's only reason is to save KSC jobs. Develop some exciting heavy lift rocket, like the Saturn V. Shuttle C is like taking your car, customizing it with a new paint job, another engine and fancy wheels.

If you want to extend the shuttle - retire one orbiter and fly the other two. You could also lay off about 35% of the KSC workers as so many of them only work 2 hours a day and goof off the remaining 6 hours. I know there are lots of hard working KSC workers out there.

Doesn't work too well to have KSC workers work on two programs at the same time. Many who worked on shuttle and Ares I-X complained how it was a major cluster "F...."

"It took 10 years but the delay was due for the most part to the Russians delays while the US, European, and Japanese hardware was sitting in storage at KSC. In fact, speaking of the Russians, come 2018 the 1st ISS module (Zarya - launched by a Proton rocket, not the Shuttle) will be 20 years old."

Not really an accurate statement from several standpoints.

ISS is really the same program begun as Space Station/Freedom in 1984. A main effect was that in all the management turmoil of the early 1990s, we were left with a bunch of ISS managers that had no experience in designing, developing or building anything, which was the problem that showed up again in Constellation. Most of the Station hardware was designed and a lot built in the 80s and early 90s before the current set of managers took over. So ISS is really the program that was supposed to be built within a decade, but which took about 25 years. Cost was about 8X what it started out as. Crew size is smaller, at 6 instead of 8. And Station size is smaller than originally envisioned. Originally there were to have been 4 Nodes, now only 3. Originally there were to be a Hab and a Lab, each 45 ft long. Now there is only a US Lab at 27 ft. Originally there were to have been 2 Cupolas. Now there is only one. Several elements that were supposed to have been US built, Node 2, 3 and Cupola, wound up being bartered to the Europeans. Program cost did not come down, however.

ISS Manager Brinkley decided to go ahead with first element launch of the FGB well before the Service Module was going to be available and manning possible. Really the result of that was that the assembly process dragged out about 2 years longer with FGB and Node 1 in orbit flying free for all that time, and with Shuttle missions pre-stocking the modules.

The next major delay was due to the Americans, as a result of the Columbia accident. That was when the foreign modules were really ready to go but had no way to get there. The Columbia accident delayed the assembly process by about 2 1/2 years. Shuttle really had a significant pacing effect throughout the program.

First a BIG thank you to Miles Grey who saved me a deal of typing!

Now that the ISS is confirmed to 2020 with an extension to 2028, it is likely that the Russians will add: MIM-1; MLM; UM; NEM-1; NEM-2 these items will comprise a new DETACHABLE "orbital complex" OPSEK. It remains to be seen if the other IPs will be invited to join...

http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/issfutmod.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/iss_fgb2.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/opsek.html
http://www.aer.bris.ac.uk/research/hem/

However, ever the optimist, this Space Cadet believes with a little TLC the ISS will continue "going round in circles!" Eventually as an orbital museum and testbed for materials fatigue in an atomic oxygen environment.

One wonders just how long MIR could have been kept going by Russian engineering and MIRCorp financing...

As for leaky seams Dennis: space oakum! The ISS 'complete' will become a project of maintenance rather than construction. In these straightened financial times it's: "Make Do and Mend."

Lastly I must take issue over newpapyrus's:
"First of all, there's no logical reason just to have just one grand centralized microgravity space that can accommodate only a few scientist. Multiple instant space stations are a lot safer and can accommodate a lot more scientist and tourist."

Actually there is! The more hardware in orbit the more resilience there is in the system. And the more scientists.
How would you prefer cross the Atlantic: in a cruise ship? Or a flotilla of dinghies? However I would concur that a backup co-orbital Refuge would be a good thing, allowing a retreat rather than a rout. Perhaps a mature "Heavenly Palace" might do the trick! Similarly free-flying crew tended facilities will emerge in increasingly more radiation prone environments.

As to these "Multiple Instant Space Stations" all I see to date are two toy Bigalow balloons and no-one can tell me if they still retain pressure.

The "Massive EDS" is launched dry and docks with the Gas Station which, if the International Community has any sense, will be orbiting at ~51.6 deg. Or 50.0 degrees, post Vostochny. After tanking up on LUNOX (with a tip o' me hat to Les:) ...the crew module departs from the ISS where there has been plenty of caulking to do. A quick dash through the belts to LLO and a dedicated Lunar Lander or L1 and the Run to Phobos Base!

"So I don't believe that there is any logic to the idea that we should only have one continuously growing international space station, mostly payed for by the US, and that has to be shared with the international community, especially one that is easier for Russian rockets to access than American rockets."

Who said anything about logic! This is International Geo-Politics not Rocket Science!

@brobof


Actually there is! The more hardware in orbit the more resilience there is in the system. And the more scientists.
How would you prefer cross the Atlantic: in a cruise ship? Or a flotilla of dinghies? However I would concur that a backup co-orbital Refuge would be a good thing, allowing a retreat rather than a rout. Perhaps a mature "Heavenly Palace" might do the trick! Similarly free-flying crew tended facilities will emerge in increasingly more radiation prone environments.

As to these "Multiple Instant Space Stations" all I see to date are two toy Bigalow balloons and no-one can tell me if they still retain pressure.

The "Massive EDS" is launched dry and docks with the Gas Station which, if the International Community has any sense, will be orbiting at ~51.6 deg. Or 50.0 degrees, post Vostochny. After tanking up on LUNOX (with a tip o' me hat to Les:) ...the crew module departs from the ISS where there has been plenty of caulking to do. A quick dash through the belts to LLO and a dedicated Lunar Lander or L1 and the Run to Phobos Base!"

1. Never put all of your eggs in one basket. If there's damage to one space station, you could always seek refuge in another. That's why I'd deploy two instant space stations within a few hundred meters or a few kilometers of each other.

2. A heavy lift vehicle could launch an instant Skylab-like space station to Earth orbit or to a Lagrange point.

3. We're already pumping $2 billion a year into the ISS, now Obama wants to pump $3 billion a year into the ISS. And this rate we'll never have any money to develop any manned beyond LEO missions.

Marcel F. Williams

Just another nice PowerPoint for Obama and for the press to ooo and ahhh over.

It does not matter the reason it took so long to build the ISS. If you seek to replace modules, there will be new reasons why it takes longer than anyone thinks; Remember: NASA/WH/OSTP/OMB dysfunction.

"Why would they do this if they were going to extend the shuttle?"

Because you still need emergency escape vehicles for the ISS crew. Since you can put all your ISS crew on a Soyuz why keep flying Shuttle?

Extending Shutle only makes sense if you are going to use it as the basis for something else although experience shows that you don't get the commonality and cost savings you think you can by re-using a design (see P-7, started as 70% common with P3, ended up only having about 30% common).

"If there's damage to one space station, you could always seek refuge in another."

A more cost effective strategy is to have a crew return vehicle attached and just come home. No need for two stations near each other just to provide a "safe haven".

A successful X-37B launch, which is scheduled for a couple of weeks from now, is going make the proposed Oldsmobile Orion (TM) space capsule seem like even more of an antique, Living History item.

What on earth are you talking about? It's basically a mini-shuttle mounted on top of an Atlas. Now there's some real living history.

Other than perhaps an improved TPS, it seems like most of the new technology on it is related to the autonomous on-orbit capability - i.e. nothing that will be any use in getting either people or pounds to orbit.

"A more cost effective strategy is to have a crew return vehicle attached and just come home. No need for two stations near each other just to provide a "safe haven"."

Then that leaves you with no space station if that sole station had to be abandoned because it was severely damaged. Putting all of you eggs in just one basket is just a bad idea, IMO.

Multiple space stations can accommodate more people and are much safer because if one gets damaged, you can always seek refuge in another.

Marcel F. Williams

Re Orion Lite:
Orion Lite has one advantage, that of (proposed) mid-air interception, which I think is certainly better that spash-down, and arguably better than parachute or airstrip. The interceptor could fly directly to a preferred home base.

A drawback is the throwing away of its service module, which is also a separation event, and probably a life-or-death one. The Dragon's service module is on the crew-side of its heat shield, so it's not discarded. In addition, its SM rocketry is used as an abort-ejection system. So I think the Dragon may be better designed than Orion as a "Lite".

And it doesn't look very likely that Orion can be reshaped to position the service module crew-side of the heat shield.

But, if the Orion crew compartment could be a basic module for future vehicle forms, including encased (sans heat shield, of course) in a lifting body, along with its SM, then Orion Lite might be good as a stepping stone to that.

Otherwise, the only way to salvage the Orion investment is to refit its technology into a completely new shape.


Here's an overview of the Dragon. Note heat shield placement:

http://www.spacex.com/dragon.php

newpapyrus
1/ Absolutely! A second ISS with a Mk II Chinese core could be a way forward. Asserting Chinese independance (= prestige) and inclusion (at arm's length) at the same time. Although if the Shuttle is extended I see a Taikonaut in the mix....

2/ Whilst I love your "instant Skylab-like space station" SPOING!
Just add water. Literally!(See below.) However such a refuge or free-flyer need not require an HLV. An outfitted ATV -naturally with an inflatable component- only masses 20,500kg. (Kepler.)
Although one wonders what sort of 'instant space station' might be achieved if the Shuttle C gets off the pad. Here's one idea.
Although I have always been a fan of tank farming...
3/ In order to develop a BEO infrastructure: 'instant space stations' at L1, L2, LLO, etc; we have to get the one in LEO working FIRST! WRC, Toilet, SARJs,... Plus the added problems of working, well away from home. Notably: micro-gravity medical techniques, simple AFFORDABLE logistics, and most importantly of all: an unforgiving radiation environment. A water inflated Transhab not only provides Life support but radiation shielding as well and, if sourced from the Lunar surface, we really would have achieved something! However we can no longer trust to LUCK: the post Apollo 16, Great Proton Storm of August 1972!
Despite what Bush II announced the ISS is not "complete" and will continue to grow for many years to come. Let's use it and learn how to change a Raft into a Vessel.

ex_navy April 8, 2010 10:39 AM
"A more cost effective strategy is to have a crew return vehicle attached and just come home. No need for two stations near each other just to provide a "safe haven"."
To replace newpapyrus' idiom with one of my own: it might be of use if you could stand off non essential crew in an adjacent ship whilst the fire teams deal with a fire, ECLSS breakdown, toxic spill,... Then if the problem is resolved: everyone can return and clean up the mess. If ALL the Rats leave, the ship WILL sink!

Flash001 April 8, 2010 1:32 PM
Re Air interception. That might be OK for cargo return or SAMOS. Humans not so much. IMHO Orion (Heavy)has a role to play as assured (emergency) CRV "escape pod" with an extended on orbit life and an increasing spiral of abort capability. Initially LEO and ultimately: anywhere in the solar system! For starters the Orion (Heavy)should have multiple landing zone capability: snow covered steppes to sahara desert; or a prolonged period afloat. And a high degree of automation!

J Nobles--
"Here's an overview of the Dragon. Note heat shield placement:"
etc

On this page:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1095
find the quote:
"Below the capsule (crew compartment) is an integrated service module. In addition to on-orbit operations, the service module can also provide the combined crew compartment/service module with the ability to pull the entire crew and cargo off the pad or out of the flight path should an abort be required."
The view on your link shows the Dragon with its cargo "trunk" attached below the heat shield.
The trunk is not the service module. The service module is integrated with the crew capsule, so it is not really a "module" itself.

On your link, find this pdf data sheet link: http://www.spacex.com/downloads/dragonlab-datasheet.pdf
It may clarify things some more:

Thank you, Flash001

You don't have to replace ISS modules after 20 years. Mir was designed for 5 years and lasted 12, Shuttle had a 20-year design life and is over 25, Hubble was designed for 5 years and has lasted almost 20, and don't forget the 90-day rovers on Mars that are 5 years old. ISS could operate another 20 years with maintenance. Now that could be an issue given there will not be major spares even if we could deliver them. The US didn't spend $100 billion on ISS, nor did the IP community. Our total cost is around $30 billion. The cost of Shuttle flights for construction should not be counted against ISS because the Shuttle is a separate program that would have spent money flying 2-week Spacelab missions had there been no Station.

As for reasons why side-mount is better than in-line; less impact to KSC infrastructure, less development costs and time for the flight hardware, and there's that base heating issue with the engines so close to the SRB exhaust. The latter is a show-stopper. And minimizing the impact to KSC infrastructure is crucial since we no longer have the experience necessary to do such large scale design. CxP ground systems are an absolute disaster and would have been fatal to the POR had it not been canceled.

In the budget arena, we should be able to develop Shuttle-C while reducing the Shuttle program to 2 flights per year and still do commercial and R&D. The key will be to get the JSC and MSFC design folks off the Shuttle charge code and onto the new development. This is why Shuttle is so expensive, not the actual processing and launching at KSC. KSC only gets around $400 million per year out of a $3 billion program. Yet people think the answer to cost savings is to reduce the KSC workforce of touch labor.

Ops folks don't know how to do much more than process existing hardware and build empires, yet they are running our large-scale development programs and are failing. We need to tear down these fifedoms, streamline operations costs by getting rid of all the fluff (keep the hands-on engineers and technicians), and put some design people in charge of design. If we don't, we'll fail at whatever we do.

Bolden denied this story in today's press conference (April 8, 2010).

What on earth are you talking about? It's basically a mini-shuttle mounted on top of an Atlas. Now there's some real living history.

There's more:

Ares
A Defense Technology Blog

Doing a 180 - AFRL's Rocket-back Pathfinder
Posted by Graham Warwick at 4/7/2010 7:52 AM CDT

Forget the personal jetpacks, the thing we've waited longest for is a military spaceplane. As Bill notes, the US Air Force is finally getting round to testing the reusable, maneuverable orbital vehicle part, in the shape of the Boeing X-37B. But what about the commensurate quick-turnaround launch vehice?

Well the Air Force Research Laboratory has just released a pre-solicitation notice for its Reusable Booster System (RBS) Pathfinder program. This is to be a subscale demonstrator for a reusable booster that would launch vertically, release an expendable upper-stage stack, and return to a horizontal landing on a runway at the launch site. The full-size RBS is envisioned as replacing Atlas and Delta EELVs some time after 2035.

...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53

You NASA community people really should try to develop some awareness of the world outside.

Graham Warwick: "what about the commensurate quick-turnaround launch vehice?"

While you're on the above subject, and speaking of "the world outside":

http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/downloads/SKYLON_User_%20Manual_rev1%5B3%5D.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_Engines_Skylon

I wouldn't sneeze at the above possibility, after all, this is the 21st Century.

Graham Warwick: "what about the commensurate quick-turnaround launch vehice?"

While you're on the above subject, and speaking of "the world outside":

http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/downloads/SKYLON_User_%20Manual_rev1%5B3%5D.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_Engines_Skylon

I wouldn't sneeze at the above possibility, after all, this is the 21st Century.

it might be of use if you could stand off non essential crew in an adjacent ship whilst the fire teams deal with a fire, ECLSS breakdown, toxic spill,... Then if the problem is resolved: everyone can return and clean up the mess.

This is an interesting picture. If there were some sort of space fire truck or space tow truck, how might that affect the industry?

Alas Flash 001 Skylon is a British Space project and so, just as it reaches a reasonable Technological Readiness. The Project will be cancelled and an Official Secrets Act slapped on it; so as to hush the roar of outrage from the British pro-space community.
HOTOL (MkIII) would be flying by now...

As I have stated to Lord Drayson, on any number of occasions: Show us the Money!

Not sure about the fire truck. But one rationale for America to occupy the "High Ground" (L1) would be the core provision of a high dV Rescue service. Especially when the free return lunar tours start up!
More hand waving can be found here.
(My submission to Professor Ed Crawley Augustine Committee.)

I wouldn't sneeze at the above possibility, after all, this is the 21st Century.

I need a big box of Kleenex.

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