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Commercialization

What Would YOU Do With a Falcon 9?

By Keith Cowing
NASA Watch
January 16, 2014
Filed under ,

NASA Watch founder, Explorers Club Fellow, ex-NASA, Away Teams, Journalist, Space & Astrobiology, Lapsed climber.

75 responses to “What Would YOU Do With a Falcon 9?”

  1. Vladislaw says:
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    A probe to search for small tojans, greeks and hildas in Earth’s orbit.

    • mfwright says:
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      Interesting image, a lot of material out there but spread over large area. Considering lower costs of Falcon 9 coupled with modular spacecraft design (avoid ever expensive one-time designs), launch a few to investigate these different clusters. See if there is sufficient number of asteroids worth mining as this article suggests there is not, https://medium.com/the-phys

  2. Dallas Schwartz says:
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    Do a Manned lunar orbital flight. Proving Falcon/Dragon is capable of not only manned LEO but trans lunar flight. I would deploy a lander to the lunar surface establishing a remotely operated observatory on the Moon. Possibly landing it in the South pole region to perform core samples of the trapped ice for analysis of water content.

    If the F9H is part of the package then I would take the Dragon to L2 proving that CIS-Lunar activity is now possible.

    • Skinny_Lu says:
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      Yes. Something like Apollo 8 “redux”. If we are not ready for flying crew in the Dragon (because the escape system is not ready), send the Dragon around the moon, take video & pictures, then validate the Dragon heat shield upon returning to Earth.

    • LPHartswick says:
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      I don’t think a Falcon 9 is capable of placing a Dragon into a trans lunar path.

      • ProfSWhiplash says:
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        Well now, there’s one way of determining the validity of whether it can or can’t do just that very thing:
        In accordance with this query: “what would we do if we had a (I assume it’s ‘free’) F9?” …. we should just do that very mission! Just load up a (rad-hardened for the BEO trip) Dragon with some instrumentation (cameras to look out, and maybe radiation & other ECLSS-related sensors to “look” in). And then light that 9-wick candle!

        • ASFalcon13 says:
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          Or, ya know, we could save a few million in hardware and fuel costs, and just use the rocket equation instead. I don’t feel like running the numbers myself right now, but if they show that the F9 doesn’t have the delta-V to throw a Dragon at the Moon, why waste the hardware trying to prove well-understood laws of physics wrong?

          • Robert Clark says:
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            Doing a rough estimate using a ca. 13,000 kg payload capability to LEO and a ca. 4,000 kg Dragon mass, we might be able to do it filling up the trunk with ca. 9,000 kg of propellant and using the Drago thrusters.

            Bob Clark

  3. Denniswingo says:
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    A commercial payload that would reap a 20x return on investment.

  4. BeanCounterFromDownUnder says:
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    Most of Congress on a one way trip.

  5. Rocky J says:
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    Musk is leaving SpaceX private for a while – 10 years, probably 15. It gives them room to imagine the possibilities. They already have some commitment to launch Sentinel to find all the Near-Earth Asteroids. How about send a vehicle on a Falcon 9 to attach to Kepler and provide a new set of momentum wheels plus include a relay transmitter so that the vehicle can continue operating beyond 2017 (out of transmission range). Or take inventory of all the decommissioned space probes, select one, rendezvous and attach to it to restart a new extended mission. Which old satellite or probe would be a good one?

    • DTARS says:
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      I assume you would use tinkers idea where you turn Dragon capsule and trunk into a fuel depot that refuels satellites? Would you need any humans to help your machines? Would we need a dragon trunk beam? Work in Geo? Up grade ISS for support? Maybe add large Bigelow stations to ISS for support? Didn’t some one say that little lander NASA is testing would make a great space tug?

      • Rocky J says:
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        Or it is just a thought. SpaceX, other companies ask these questions to get fresh ideas. A lot of the ideas are way too fresh but you give the pile to someone with time, e.g. intern, to filter out the noise. NASA had the asteroid initiative RFI (Request for Information) open to the public and received hundreds of ideas. The man-hour cost for NASA employees to do the same would be millions. They get it for next to nothing. And the ideas become NASA’s to do what they will – morph, combine, build upon. SpaceX might get a couple good ideas or read something that spawns one.

        Where would you want to go in Dragon? Is Dragon rated for re-entry at lunar return speeds?

        • DTARS says:
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          Rocky I’ve been flying falcons and dragons here a NASA watch a while.

          I sent a flock of used dragons to the moon to hunt and make fuel out of lunar ice Paul and I figured we needed about 7 of them lol snow white e and the 7 dwarves. The dragons had no shields and landing leg wheels some scearched for ice other seperated the water from the dirt, others made fuel. One dragon could refuel another. And being dragons they could all hop. They would travel around the moons ice area leaving fuel depots on the moon. And even launch fuel to L?
          This happened when I learned that Spacex owns their old dragons forever and I got tired of hearing the whining about no money for landers.

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            NASA Ames has the Proposed “Red Dragon”
            I have proposed a two capsule red dragon mission

        • DTARS says:
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          Another good use for a dragon would be as a Mars lander. After hearing about all the expense and danger of our last rover on Mars I thought that you just modify an old cargo dragon for Mars landing. Maybe you add fold out shields to help with drag and use shutes and draco thruster landing.. Once on Mars the capsule top hops off the shield and rover or the rover through a hatch and drops down. Anyway the idea was to make a simple cheap landing system from off the shelf parts that could be used over and over every two years reducing the cost of mars robotic exploration.

        • DTARS says:
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          And of course I had to launch a dragon to Titan to land it in a lake and launch some robot fish. That report back to dragon for data transfer. Yup inthe near future we may see used dragons flying everywhere.

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            Yes!
            This Dragon could bring TIME and the balloon probe.
            but this dragon would need HEAT! or the decadal survey proposed small fission reactor
            after deploying TIME and Balloon probe Dragon could repose on the lake herself

            http://yellowdragonblog.com

          • DTARS says:
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            Cool 🙂

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            DTARS
            I like your comment! “coool”

            it is cold (cool)out near the outer planets and there is a shortage of RTG Plutonium. on my new blog I have been kicking around this idea to; Dragon avionics that can survive in deep space for a decade could find it self back into a deep space rated human crew Dragon

  6. TheBrett says:
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    I’d put another big space telescope up, if it’s available. Kepler massed about one metric ton, and something even bigger than that could be launched on a Falcon 9.

    It’s a pity it can’t do more. I’d love to use, say, an SLS to launch an crazy awesome outer planets probe with a Topaz-style nuclear reactor and some great instruments, along with a probe to drop into one of the outer gas giants’ atmosphere (I wonder if you could make a probe that would be buoyant in their atmospheres at a depth and temperature where it could survive for a while).

    • Denniswingo says:
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      As much as I like the Falcon 9 It could not lift Hubble.

      • DTARS says:
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        Could falcon heavy lift a Hubble?????

        • Denniswingo says:
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          Oh yea… After you redesigned it for the different load paths.

          • DTARS says:
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            ????

          • Paul451 says:
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            Hubble MkI launched in the shuttle. Different forces, different attachment points.

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            I have written about Dragon Cygnus mission to Hubble for repair, I think I have seen someone else post something like this.
            Dragon could dock with Cygnus for pressurized and non pressurized astronaut needs and power as well as Hubble instrument replacement repair

            So now I am begging for a Falcon and a Antares! shameful!

          • DTARS says:
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            Not shameful, wonderful
            What about saving and reusing falcon second stages. I have written here about making a docking beam out of dragon trunks and storing falcon second stages to it. Seems to me these second stages could double as a service module.

            You see my avatar picture

            That was trying to come up with ways to make safer space suits after hearing how dangerous space walking is. Too dangerous to build things in space.
            I think your idea of using or reusing repurposing these vehicles that are now thrown away makes all kinds of sense.

            Use what we have as a tinker says lol

            After watching Nova a year or two ago and learning that many asteroids are just piles of rocks, I sent 4 falcon second stages dragging a net like fishing boats fishing for asteroids. Just read in this post that we have lots of rockks nearby hummm maybe we don’t need a big rocket to start getting asteroids. You don’t need an airlock for my suites. You just climb through the double hatch in the back.

            Lol my tick pilots need a job repairing Hubble and other satellites. Lol

          • Vladislaw says:
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            Construction on earth is dangerous. Conderstruction under the earth or under the ocean is more dangerous, construction in space more dangerous. We built the ISS and no one died during construction, I believe it is safe enough that we should not make it a non starter. Safe at all costs means we wlll never go anywhere because we will have priced it out of existance.

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            DTAR I agree

        • Rocky J says:
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          Falcon Heavy – 2.4 meter mirror in a 5 meter fairing – oh yeah. Length would have fit, tightly. Falcon 9 could not lift the weight of Hubble but “Heavy” could easily. Today, one could build a Hubble replacement for observations in the visible, near-UV and near infra-red, with a 5 meter class segmented and light enough to be lifted by a Falcon 9 to a Hubble type orbit. And be serviceable by robotic vehicles for maintenance and upgrade. JWST looks only in the infra-red. Such a Hubble replacement would have 4x the light gathering power plus state-of-the-art instruments. This would be a very cool privately funded Falcon 9 project. Might be done for under $1B. Any thoughts on the cost? (gee, re-reading Hubble project history makes me cringe.)

          • Steven Rappolee says:
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            do you folks know the NRO mirrrer is just that!

            2.4 Meters?

            and that the Dragon pressure vesssel floor is close to the length of Kepler

            http://yellowdragonblog.com

            and there is a third NRO mirror…………

          • Rocky J says:
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            Yes and no. I knew their size but haven’t followed carefully what is going on with proposals. WFIRST looks like one good use. The cost of JWST is delaying WFIRST. These are heavy telescopes and probably could not be lifted by F-9. Another good use floated is to send one to Mars for high resolution surveys of the surface. F-H could do that.

        • Rocky J says:
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          One other thing you can say about Falcon 9 and Heavy is that the ride for the optics of a Hubble or NRO telescope or whatever would be a lot easier than on Space Shuttle. The Shuttle SRBs made for a very rough ride.

      • Steven Rappolee says:
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        could falcon heavy loft a Dragon derived telescope?

      • ASFalcon13 says:
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        No, but it could put up another Kepler, like TheBrett suggested. F9’s got a larger throw weight than the Delta II that Kepler rode up on.

        Edit: Actually, I take that back. Assuming Wikipedia’s right (and yes, that’s one hell of an assumption), Hubble’s 24,500 lb, and SpaceX claims that the F9 can put 28,991 lb in LEO. So maybe it could lift a Hubble, if it could fit under the fairing.

        • Paul451 says:
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          Hubble’s 24,500 lb, and SpaceX claims that the F9 can put 28,991 lb in LEO.

          Don’t forget the mass of the fairing. Guestimates for the fairing (and payload support, etc) are about 2 tonnes. So you’re right on the 13.1 tonnes, maybe a little over. And doing Hubble MkII on the cheap will inevitably be heavy, even using more modern materials and manufacturing. You just can’t afford that gram-shaving obsession.

          However, perhaps you could leave the instruments and solar panels out? Send it to ISS, ask very politely if the nice astronauts there would kindly fit the extras sent up as secondary payloads on a CRS flight or three.

          The ISS environment is dirty, but you can cover and seal the front glass until you’re ready to send it away. Add an ion drive, and you can send it off and bring it back for later upgrades. (A second ion drive module with a larger fuel tank might even be able to bring the original Hubble to the ISS for refurb before it dies completely. The original has different mirror specs than the NRO’s freebies, hence the MkII won’t substitute for the MkI. Worth saving it if we can.)

          “if it could fit under the fairing.”

          It’s a brand new scope. You’d design it to the launcher.

          [Where the funding comes from for all this, I have no idea. We’re only get a free launcher, the cheapest part of the project.]

  7. Saturn1300 says:
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    If it is capable, a lander to the place on Mars that has 20 times the magnetic field of Earth and has been that way for 4 billion years. Might be an oasis for life if the field protects from radiation. Or at least to see if radiation is less there. That is if no cost restraints. A cheap secondary cube sat launch to a orbit or flyby of Mars might be more likely to happen. The first private launch to Mars.

    • Denniswingo says:
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      You know of such a place? Never seen that in the literature.

      • Vladislaw says:
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        Dennis, here is a link that shows that Mars has localized magnetic fields with a few stronger than earth.

        http://lasp.colorado.edu/~b

        • Denniswingo says:
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          Vlad

          Check again, not even close. Even at 400 km the Earth’s magnetic field is 10^4 nano Teslas while the strongest field on the surface of Mars is about 600 nano teslas, about 2 orders of magnitude difference.

          The Moon in certain areas, Reiner Gamma for one, has a field about the same strength as on Mars, enough to deflect the solar wind.

  8. The Tinfoil Tricorn says:
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    Other than many mirco sats, on the same mission I’d also launch a
    orbital debris collection system to fly to different orbits and collect
    valuable trash, compact it and return it to earth for recycle.

    • DTARS says:
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      Return the valuable trash to the recycle salvage station that is added to ISS, commercial wing,

      Rocky

      Call orbital and Bigelow and design a cheap garbage deorbiter, I’ll call Spacex we need a dragon trunk with four docks on it to save Cygnus human rated rooms. My tick pilots need a geo work bus to assist with salvage, deorbit and refueling operations. Let’s get to work up their making earth orbit safe for human habitation.

      • The Tinfoil Tricorn says:
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        I would keep the material up there but there is no competative market for the raw components yet, when china, Russia and others are in space then there might be a market for re manufactured satellites in space. Many of the dead ones just need fuel or new gyros. At the moment the best value you could get for gold foil, silver, complex circuits and high-res cameras is on earth. Long term though there’s a market for junk that’s already in space because refined materials in orbit include the value of launching them there. If robotics were more advanced a good business would be going about collecting dead satellites testing components and building something new and selling that configuration.

      • Steven Rappolee says:
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        trash is IRSU!

    • Paul451 says:
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      I’d also launch a orbital debris collection system to fly to different orbits and collect valuable trash, compact it and return it to earth for recycle.

      No need to return it.

      If you want do the world a favour, de-orbit a few of the big dead satellites. Just dumping the ESA’s Envisat into the Pacific would reduce the risk of a Kessler cascade by over half all on its own.

      • The Tinfoil Tricorn says:
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        I’d also launch a orbital debris collection system to fly to
        different orbits and collect valuable trash, compact it and return it
        to earth for recycle.

        No need to return it.

        If you want do the world a favour, de-orbit a few of the big dead
        satellites. Just dumping the ESA’s Envisat into the Pacific would reduce
        the risk of a Kessler cascade by over half all on its own..

        It would be nice to tow the junk into a sun orbit, same path as the earth, good place to find raw materials at a later date but are not in the orbital path of anything in particular and would not be affected by the moon. Id say it would be wiser to crash it all into a small area of the moon, because the moon would make a decent manufacturing base, lower cost than launching assembled materials from earth.

        • DTARS says:
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          I thought man would go to other planets and then make garbage dumps.

          Start with a dump! Lol

          I like it! 🙂

          Joes Wrecker Service

        • Paul451 says:
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          I’m trying to be realistic. The delta_v cost of a reentry burn is vastly less than the delta_v to get to the moon or into a solar orbit.

          And the material in a lunar crashed satellite isn’t going to valuable enough to be useful for ISRU for a long long time. By the time it is, there’ll be a lot of other junk to play with, and better propulsion systems to play with it.

          Right now, we should remove dangerous junk the cheapest easiest way possible. (And frankly, the ESA should be publicly shamed over not sending a deorbit mission for Envisat.)

  9. DTARS says:
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    Where would I go?
    And when?
    How about February 22, 2014

    Hang on, let me make a call.

    Hello Mr. Musk.
    I want to be the first commercial astronaut.
    Put one seat in your cargo dragon and a system to give me air.
    Get me a suit from NASA.
    I don’t need an abort system or on board controls. I’m no pilot. Cargo dragon is safe enough. With the capsule on top, No solid boosters to worry about, engine out capabily, I believe cargo dragon, on the new falcon is much safer than any of the manned space rockets NASA ever flew.

    I’m ready!!!

    Send me to ISS so I can learn first hand what they do up there. Maybe I’ll learn about the caged parrot? And don’t forget the the wheel of cheese. I do like ice cream so to be safe, lock the freezer if you want the crew to get any.

    One possible future

    Parallel lines 🙂

    • DTARS says:
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      You know if those that ran NASA had any guts, instead of threatening to buy Russian seats NASA should send astronauts to ISS, in cargo dragon just as I described above and send Spacex the Russian seat price to invest in the abort system.

      • Steven Rappolee says:
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        agree
        SpaceX astronauts on an early test flight might be the PR we need

        • DTARS says:
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          Didn’t I read that NASA moves funds around from program to program?? To outfit a cargo dragon to carry a passenger or two would cost chump change. Sure wish they would fly some humans soon!!!

          Don’t misunderstand that I don’t think safest human rockets are not important. Just like everything else. Good things are used/distorted to line someone’s pockets.

          Lol

          Imagine if Elon does put few astronauts in a Dragon without an abort system.

          Lol Can’t you hear THEM all screaming danger! reckless! Lol

          Chicken S$%& do nothing expensive public Space.

      • ASFalcon13 says:
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        It’s easy enough to accuse others of not being gutsy enough on a web forum when it’s not your money or life at stake. Big Hail Mary plays like what you suggest can be good PR if they succeed, but can also end a program if they don’t. Does the Dragon’s seat system have a working shock absorption system? How about those SuperDraco landing thrusters, are those installed and tested yet?

        It’s not just a matter of bolting in a seat anywhere you like and calling it good. How will the the shock of landing be absorbed and mitigated? Does the cargo Dragon have a shock frame to mount to, or are you expecting the astronaut to take the full shock of the landing? Will the seat and mounting take the weight of a fully-suited astronaut at launch g-loading and vibrations? Will bolting that seat on cause loads that exceed the capability of the spacecraft structure in that location? Having the astronauts break a few bones probably isn’t the kind of PR the program needs right now.

        Spacecraft take time to develop, and a steady, incremental process is a good way to build on your previous successes and push forward, while giving yourself a chance to fix little problems that arise before they become big problems. NASA/SpaceX are making fine progress. There’s no need to take unnecessarily huge risks with daredevil stunts right now and potentially screw over the entire program. As long as Congress doesn’t torpedo the entire commercial crew idea, SpaceX will get there in time, with a robust and well-tested spacecraft. Just be patient.

        • Paul451 says:
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          That said, given a free ride and no secondary payloads, I suspect we could bodge up a load-frame, air-bag shocks, and seats that will fit the payload allowance and capsule specs. And the larger parachutes have been tested, they will help too. Just not something NASA would (or should) ever do.

          [Ermahgerd! Might even have enough mass allowance for a decent sound system. “Ring of fire” all the way to orbit! W00t!]

        • DTARS says:
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          I was planning a water landing and riding in it till on deck
          No super dracos needed.

          .My main point is that we could be flying crew right now if we wanted to.

          Cargo dragon is as safe as anything flown so far.

          Probably safer!
          Seems only public space is allowed to fly dangerous vehicles that cost billions of dollars

          As for Patience, I’m out!!!

          Lol I now understand Johns SLS post in the safety thread lol

        • Steven Rappolee says:
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          AF
          it should be noted that SpaceX is in a COTS like space act like contract for commercial crew, PR for me is for an early crew test flight (FAA)

    • Gary Warburton says:
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      I`m willing to go also

      • DTARS says:
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        Add another seat Elon!

        Welcome aboard Gary!

        Old Scuba diver here NASA. What center should Gary and l goto for space suit training?

        • Steven Rappolee says:
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          I learned how to scuba in the Indian ocean,perhaps if we lose the Falcon 9 contest we could have a runner up prize?
          a trip to the nuetral bouyancy tank?

  10. objose says:
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    Keith Cowing 1 way. Sorry, that was too easy.

  11. Steven Rappolee says:
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    May I have a Falcon Heavy?
    If so I need one to loft a Dragon Trunk with a Dragon capsule docked to an additional Dragon capsule ( think Plymouth rock mission proposal) this Dual capsule mission design is un-crewed heading to Venus or Mars with a science mission

    http://yellowdragonblog.com

    Titan Dragon?

    http://yellowdragonblog.com

    or better yet modify Dragon as a telescope,

    http://yellowdragonblog.com

  12. hikingmike says:
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    A whole lot of robots, a lander, and a few solar power stations. Send them to the moon to try any number of various tasks, early ISRU proving etc. See which robots and components are most durable, perform jobs well… then after a year or so have a Lunar Robotic Battle Royal!

    I guess we don’t quite have the robots yet, but universities and such could certainly fill some in with a little time and some funding. They’d be anywhere along the spectrum from fully remotely operated to mostly autonomous.

    I wonder if this is just a “what if” or if they are actually looking to see if there are any really interesting ideas out there that they might do. Maybe it’s something to try before trying Mars.

  13. John Gardi says:
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    Folks:

    Can I use a Falcon Heavy?

    If so, it would be just perfect for a yacht!

    Start of with a fuselage the same shape as a Falcon fairing. That would give us the volume of a small house, 17 feet in diameter and over 40 feet tall. Propulsion could be based on Draco thrusters. With 50 tonnes to play with, outfitting would be no problem!

    Launch the yacht uncrewed than send a crew Dragon up to dock with it. When the caviar runs out, come back home. Repeat as often as you can afford!

    I’m with DTARS, I’d like to go ‘up there’ on the Falcon… but I’d like to go in style!

    tinker

  14. DJE51 says:
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    I would send their under-development human rated dragon to the ISS, to be berthed at a vacant Common Berthing Mechanism, I think there are a number on Node 2. Then, continue to monitor and see what deteriorates. The Soyuz is only rated for 6 months. Lets see what happens in longer duration, get the longevity rating of the Dragon up there.

  15. HobartStinson says:
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    A space probe to every single orbiting body in the solar system, first orbiters, then landers, then sample returns to Earth.

  16. Paul451 says:
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    Sadly, I’d sell it to a satellite operator and pocket the $54m.

  17. Ben Russell-Gough says:
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    Hmm…

    I think I’d like a double lunar probe mission.

    Probe 1 would be a polar orbiter equipped specifically to test the theory proposed by Paul Spudis and others that hydroxyls are formed on the lunar surface and then migrate to the poles creating ‘native’ lunar water.

    Probe 2 would be the transport and data relay bus for several orbital-drop core sampler ‘penetrometers’. These would be fired into permanently shadowed craters to get an idea of the thickness and depth of any ice deposits. Both probes would co-operate to analyse the spectra of debris kicked up by the penetrometers’ impacts.

    UKSpace has plans for Probe 2 and their combined mass should be less than the Falcon-9 v.1.1’s TLI mass limit.

  18. Robert Clark says:
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    Send it on a circumlunar flight carrying a Dragon to prove you don’t need huge Apollo, Constellation, or SLS size rockets to do Moon missions.

    Bob Clark

    • DTARS says:
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      Mr. Clark your recent posts look really interesting. I had no idea a man moon landing was possible with 1 Falcon heavy launch!