JSC Safety Office Team Building Involves Shooting Guns
Keith’s note: Looks like all the invitees to this gun shooting team building event are from JSC Code NA – Safety and Mission Assurance Office. This was sent out the day after the Navy Yard shootings here in Washington, DC. I wonder if these JSC “safety” folks would have announced such a team building event the day after that horrible shooting incident they had at JSC a few years ago? Also – what if one or more of the people who got this email do not want to participate in a gun-related activity as part of their day job? Does that mean that they are not “team” players? How can their management put them into such a position as civil servants?
From: NETT, KAREN SUE (JSC-NA111)
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 05:08 PM Central Standard Time
To: Baumer, Gregg C. (JSC-NE111); Butler, Sharyl A. (JSC-NA121); Carrington, Thomas E. (JSC-NT111); Doremus, Robert C. (JSC-NA111); Dyer, Keith W. (JSC-NC111); Engle, Jean E. {Jeanie} (JSC-NA141); Fodroci, Michael (JSC-NE111); Kaye, Irene E. (JSC-NA111); Loyd, David T. (JSC-NS111); Mcarthur, William S. (JSC-NA111); Menard, Stacey A. (JSC-NS111); Packham, Nigel (JSC-NA111); Ross, Clarence L. (JSC-NT111); Rush, James D. (JSC-NC111); Schwartz, Mary Beth (JSC-NA121); Watkins, Vincent D. (JSC-NA111); Johnson, Rosalind E. (JSC-NA111); Tenhet, Kay E. (JSC-NA)[REDE CRITIQUE NSS JV]; Kaplan, David I. (JSC-NA111); Byerly, Deborah (JSC-NA121); Johnson, Teresa A. (JSC-NA121); Kidwell, Patrick K. (JSC-NA121); Starling, Kenesha L. (JSC-NA121); Thelen, David F. (JSC-NA131); Andrews, Cheryl R. (JSC-NA141); Fontenot, Brent J. (JSC-NA141); Marker, Walter (JSC-NA141); Meza, David (JSC-NA141); Brainard, Lydia L. (JSC-NA141)[REDE CRITIQUE NSS JV]; BARNES-GOBER, JULIE (JSC-NA141)
Subject: Please join in our TEAM BUILDING EVENT!
Ooooooooo, not SCAAAARY GUNS!!! LOL
Cool! Count me in.
Yahoo. Shoot ’em up!
So? Sport shooting is a time-honored, legal and fun activity. There is no way you can equate it with the criminal act of the Navy Yard killer.
Yahoo! Ban bang. Let’s go shoot something to be a better safety team. I get it.
No, you really don’t. Why is this even worthy of mention on NASA Watch?
Why are you reading NASA Watch?
That’s suddenly a very good question. Publishing the names of the people involved and the time and place where they’d gather… Are you making a threat of some sort with that? We’re definitely not seeing much in the way of maturity with this post.
It is an official NASA.gov email therefore this is an official document – end of discussion. File a FOIA and you can get a copy too. If you see a “threat” then you are one of those people who goes around looking for threats. The email was published to show that the entire JSC Safety Office got it at their official email address (note that they are not included) . If the sender did not want it to be released then they should not have used official government email system. As for the name calling – yea, well, that really helps make whatever point you were trying to make. Have a nice day.
So what if it’s “official” email? Everywhere I’ve worked with team building meetings & exercises used company (or govt) mails to set them up. Picky, picky – not to mention inconsiderate for outing people which sets them up for harassment by activist boo-birds. Bad manners IMHO.
The email is an official government communication from management to a large number of civil servants about an activity sanctioned by a Federal agency. It was re-forwarded by a number of its recipients to other government employees and people outside the agency with all names attached. If you file a FOIA request you can get the original email – anyone can file a FOIA request.
And your point Keith?To a group of folks who are working in Texas?
Gosh, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I was in Washington DC 10 blocks away from the Navy Yard when the shooting happened. I just managed to make it out of town before the security curtain started to clamp down only to discover that someone who lived a mile from me in Reston was one of the victims. Yet down in Texas JSC Safety people announce the day after the massacre that they are all going out to have a good ‘ol time in an (apparently) official NASA team building activity shooting weapons. And If this is not official then why was it sent from a NASA.gov email address to dozens of people in an organization at NASA?
So the bottom line is that you just don’t like to shoot- that’s fine- that’s a matter of personal preference- it’s a free country (for at least a while longer). But I, and millions of others like me, DO enjoy shooting and we DO see the value in it from many aspects. Besides, what’s this got to do with NASA as a Federal Agency, it’s budget, or space policy in general?
If this has nothing to do with NASA then why did a NASA JSC Safety Office employee send this email – about an activity for their entire NASA JSC Safety Office team – to their entire team – using NASA.gov email? Its a NASA activity and that is why it is on NASA Watch. I wonder if they would have done this same sort of “team building” 2 days after that shooting at JSC a few years ago.
I’ll bet if the Safety Office were doing one of the more “normal” team-building exercises, like white-water rafting, or climbing ropes, you wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow. You just don’t like those “scary guns”.
People do not use white water rafts or climbing gear to murder people at work – except in the movies.
I do not use my firearms to murder people at work either. I use them to punch holes in paper targets, as do tens of millions of other Americans.
Funny thing about firearms- they only do what the person pulling the trigger tells them to do. They won’t even clean up after themselves.
This clarifies a lot. Apparently you’re angry that the world isn’t a fair and logical place, and you’re using NASAWatch as an anger beacon. If the more logical parts of your brain had a say in this I think you’d realize that a handful of people getting together to responsibly and safely share their hobby has nothing to do with anything. This post clearly has nothing to do with any NASA email, and everything to do with kcowing’s omnidirectional rage. Good luck with that, but please don’t dump it in our laps in the future.
No one is forcing you to read NASAWatch. Stop reading it and I promise that you will be spared all future emotional outbursts.
Done. I vow from this day forward to never visit your site again. I’m wondering how your advertisers feel about your position on guns and your open invitation to your readers to stop visiting your site. Good luck.
Bye bye!
While “your open invitation to your readers to stop visiting your site” would be at least understandable, what Keith’s “position on guns” have to do with ads?
I consider influence of advertisers on content on any site as form of censorship – that you seem to like.
There is no link between advertising and content.
careful! Cowing will ban the living crap out of you leaving you to have to read FoxNews.
I wonder whether this was a case of this lady sending a [really!!] poorly timed reminder, regarding an event that was already planned (it takes more than a few days to plan & book a firing range, esp. with a large group).
That, as opposed to some Yippy-NASA-kai-yay yahoo, watching the news that very day… and suddenly gets inspired: “Boy howdy!! Let’s have ourselves a target shoot get-together!”
Of course, don’t forget this is also an email from TEXAS! Culture (and associated mental processes) is a mite different down thar, pardner…
I think you’ve nailed it. This coming right on the heels of the Navy Yard shooting seems insensitive at best. It’s more the timing than the actual content that stings.
Possibly the sender of this email was not aware of the shooting, or didn’t think that people would connect the two events, and so it was unintentional. But the fact remains that it was bad timing and Keith (and anybody else) is quite justified in shaking their heads and being put off by it.
I don’t think this really has anything at all to do with whether gun club people are justified in practicing their chosen recreation. And Keith said nothing on NASA Watch to condemn them; he referenced only that poorly timed email. So why did a couple of gun hobbyists get all upset? I question whether guns should be in the hands of people who are so easily offended and quick to react.
I agree with you Keith. Stick to your guns!
That’s kind of like complaining that someone drove a car the day after that nut ran over a bunch of people at Venice Beach.
Then why did NASA centers place their flags at half mast?
Probably because they were told too- like all Federal facilities.
So you do not think it was appropriate to lower the flag at JSC in honor/memory of the Navy Yard victims?
Of course- 12 fellow Federal employees/contractors were murdered. What’s your point? The gun control crowd once again is trying to take advantage of the tragedy.
You have made your point. Find another blog to post on for the rest of today.
First, the point of the posting is that this announcement was incredibly tone deaf.
Second, ‘taking advantage’, really? So, when an airliner crashes and the NTSB sends out a crew to investigate and learn from it, would you sneer at them for ‘taking advantage of the tragedy’? No, a horrible incident like this is an opportunity to learn, to do better by understanding things like:
– a health care system that ignores such a blatant case of mental illness is deeply broken
– a military background check system that fails to identify an obviously unstable dangerous person in its midst is deeply broken
– a country awash in guns, backgrounds checks or no, makes it easy for someone who, in a fit of rage, passion, or mental illness, wants to hurt someone to kill massive numbers of people quickly because it’s so easy to put your hands on the guns which allow you to do just that. If all he had was a stick or a knife, 12 people would not be dead tonight. That’s deeply broken, too. Editorial cartoonist Tom Toles probably said it best: http://www.gocomics.com/tom…
So extending Keith’s logic, anytime someone is killed by a drunk, distracted, or just plain idiotic driver, we should stop driving cars.
You have a curious way of “extending” logic.
Not to mention business dinners with alcohol and associating with idiots… which would make most management and staff meetings forbidden.
Whew – let me (try to) bring some levity to this conversation.
I don’t shoot guns, at least not since I was a teenager growing up in the midwest and going hunting with my father. And while I am for some levels of gun control, not nearly as much as other groups.
That being said – I actually agree with Keith that it may have been, in retrospect, a little insensitive to not cancel or postpone this obviously pre-planned event in light of what happened.
BUT – what I really DO NOT think is cool, is publishing all the names of the people on this email. Really? I get emails all the time asking me to do this or do that during or after work. This email was inviting a list of people, who may or may not have been interested, to an after-work event. Seeing a couple names on this email I recognize, I can’t imagine how I would feel if I was fingered out on NASA Watch simply for having an ill-timed event invitation emailed to me.
It is an official NASA.gov email therefore this is an official document. File a FOIA and you can get a copy too. NASA people seem to be clueless in this regard. The email was published to show that the entire JSC Safety Office got it at their official email addresses (note that the actual email addresses are not included). If the sender did not want it to be released – or subject to FOIA request – then they should not have used official government email system in the first place. Indeed this email has now been re-forwarded – by people who initially received it – to others outside their organization who did not. If I did not show everything then people would be complaining that I made this up.
If I had a nickel for every e-mail I received from a nasa.gov addy with an “unofficial” subject- someone’s retirement, fun run, club meetings, luncheons, etc. ad nauseum- I’d be a wealthy man. Unless this is just one example of your broader “investigation into the misuse of official e-mail systems, Keith, then the only reason this came up is because you don’t like guns.
Yawn you are just being goofy. You made your point long ago. Time to troll somewhere else. Bye.
Keith I don’t see your name on the distribution list, how and why did you get this email, other than illegally?
Are you a law enforcement officer? The email was sent to me by multiple sources in a fashion that is totally legal. If you think something illegal has happened then by all means contact NASA.
how and why did you get this email, other than illegally?
What law would that be breaking??
MisterBoots thinks Keith is the NASA hacker.
[More seriously, does no one at NASA know how to use BCC? I taught my tech illiterate mum to use BCC when emailing to groups of friends.]
MisterBoots needs to be careful when he accuses someone of unlawful activity – and, in so doing violating the TOS for the site – and risks being banned. No second warning.
Regardless of the timing, which I think was thoughtless and in poor taste, I would like to know what kind of leader thinks an activity that brings out so much negative emotional energy on both sides could be any kind of “team building” activity??
If these people were going to shoot and murder people than you would have a point. But I didn’t see the government stop using airplanes as soon as the stand down after 911 was over. There is no link, Zero, NADA between the shootings by a crazed madman in DC and a bonding event by some JSC people. Just like with the planes the guns are just an instrument. If anyone is offended by the use of guns they should get some therapy or get over it.
(sigh) People who aren’t willing to use their real names just love to post tough talk like this.
You’re all zooming on the least offensive view of this train wreck.
1) The names listed are virtually all GS15’s or SES, in line with NASA’s grossly inflated pay scales. As such, their salaries are well north of $150,000.
2) At least half were placed in this organization to (putting it politely) get them out of the way.
3) A smaller group of the list likely held a series of meetings over a couple of months tasked with coming up with a TEAM BUILDING exercise. The only activity for which they could obtain consensus? Get in isolated booths at a gun range as induhviduals. Fire a gun and obtain an induhvidual score (insert smirk).
4) Bonus nausea: Come in at 9am on friday, take an hour and a half civil servant lunch off-site, and then leave work at three to go home change clothes, and pick up your gun.
Team building exercise lolol
May I suggest fox hunting!!!
How about just doing WORK together!!!!!!
I work 70 hour weeks these days. We do team work. I help the rigger shake out and fly the steel.
We build something with our team work!!!!
My tax money pays for team building exercises???
Great!!!!!!!!!!
PS How about teaming up and making space flight/settlement safe and affordable by WORKING!!!!!
Mr. Thumbs down
Since you don’t like me post
Please let me know why???
I have always been suspicious that many so called “Team Building” events are just an excuse to let the more privileged employees have fun at company/taxpayer expense. In my opinion a true team building event should involve activities where the participants actually work together as a team (what a concept). For example I participated in one team building event where they had an obstacle course set up, and you and your teammates had to work together to figure out how to get everyone through each obstacle, like over a wall, etc. And you also had to figure out how to assist the weaker members when needed because success for the team required it. Not all team building activities have to be that physical either.
More dubious events that I have been on include miniature golf, bowling, indoor rock climbing, go-cart racing, etc. No real team building going on there in my opinion. To be fair these type of activities can facilitate a certain amount of bonding I suppose, or morale building, which has its value. But calling this “Team Building” stretches the term a bit far in my opinion
Some better “bonding” activities that I have been on are Adopt-A-Road where we go out and pick up trash on the street that our company sponsors. And we have done Habitat for Humanity house building, and painted the interior of a non-profit day care center. One that I wish I had been able to go on was where employees of our company picked oranges in a grove, and everything they picked was given to a food bank. I have found that these type of activities are a lot more memorable, and I feel more connected to the employees that I shared those experiences with than the ones that I went bowling with for example, which frankly I barely even remember.
I wonder if they would have announced this same sort of “team building” activity 2 days after that shooting at JSC a few years ago.
I Don’t watch to much news these days. I am tired of hearing about people killing, for whatever reason. I avoided reading this thread until just now, but I checked the posts on the Orbital launch many times. However after seeing how many posts were here I checked it out. And as usual I found the posts interesting, entertaining, and thought provoking which is why I read NASA watch.
To me all human life is equally important and I wonder why the loss of astronauts is treated as a national tragedy while our solders are sent to the meat grinder daily.
Yes I have grown numb to all our foolishness which I believe is brought on by our tribalistic ways.
While I dream of us getting off this rock some day, sadley I feel it is our very nature which will most likely prevent it.
Sorry to be a touch off topic but I don’t use my email.
I think one of the simplest most important quotes said last century by Rodney King “Why can’t we all get along?”
I wonder if they would have done this same sort of “team building” a day after that shooting at JSC a few years ago.
the primary purpose of a hammer is to hit a nail.
The primary purpose of a baseball bat is to hit a baseball (hence the name).
The primary purpose of a rifle it to kill something.
there is no comparison.
That’s total presumption on your part. I have over 30 firearms and shoot them regularly. I have anything from a .22 to a 50BMG to a fully automatic .308. Several of the firearms I own are considered assault weapons by the liberal media but have never assaulted anything more than a target. I’ll go one step further. If someone ever breaks into my house while I’m present I would much rather use a baseball bat to kill them than any firearm I possess. Much less damage to my house and zero danger to my family coupled with the satisfying sound and feel of a Louisville Slugger bouncing off of the cranium of an intruder whilst I give him a wood shampoo make it my weapon of choice. My next choice would be a 24″ long piece of 0000 welding cable.
Why do they assume that everybody enjoys shooting guns?? Not everyone does.
If this is for the “team”, shouldn’t they pick some activity that maybe 99% of the people on the team might enjoy? Isn’t there something else to do in Houston other than eat and shoot guns??
The CDC does not have any such data, btw. Check your “facts”
OH… My…. GOSH!!!!! Can you imagine?!?!?!?
And what if people actually wanted to see people speaking at a play after somebody was killed at a constitutionally protected free speech event or rally??? All plays where speech takes place must be CANCELLED. And what if people wanted to go to a dance a period of time after a woman, or women across the country were raped? The HORRORS!!! All dances MUST be cancelled for X weeks after any rapes.
The shrieking form the people afraid of the U.S. Constitution is hilarious. And that some people take these leftist seriously is mind boggling as well.
I wonder if these same safety people at NASA JSC would have announced this same sort of “team building” activity the day after that shooting at JSC a few years ago…
It’s different when it’s YOUR tribe.
Your ranting is mind boggling, for sure.
At this point in the US, guns are as emotional a topic as religion or politics. So why is it ok for someone at the top of a government organization in effect to say “we will have a team building activity surrounding the use of guns.” So, does it follow that those in the organization who do not wish to fire guns are not team players? How about this: we will have a team building activity at my church/mosque synagogue on this date… Perfectly within a leader’s rights, but not appropriate in the workplace and not inclusive of all employees.
Excellent points – just revised my main post. Thank you.
So golf, rafting, hiking etc are out too? Not everyone likes or can physically do them either. Where does it stop? Pinochle?
Keith: most all of these spree killers (medical term, look it up) have severe mental illnesses that are unaddressed because of various federal and state privacy & committal laws. These prevent people like the Navy shooter (and others) from getting on BATF’s no-buy list. Reform them before limiting the rights of law abiding citizens who enjoy the shooting sports – 99+% of which is shooting targets or hunting, not killing people.
How would that work exactly? Everyone would have to turn over their medical records? Everyone who wants to buy a gun would have to go to a psychiatrist to get a clean bill of health, and then make that exam a public record? Okay, that solves the legal purchase of guns by people who shouldn’t have one. But what about the gazillion illegal guns? Do you start kicking down doors to search for illegal guns? Is there a solution to this problem that doesn’t turn American into a police state?
You people are just itching to get on the train to crazy town.
Perhaps. I’m actually in favor of restricting gun sales. But just how the heck can it be done? Banning liquor was absolutely ineffective during Prohibition. “The war on drugs” has been spectacularly unsuccessful. Why does anyone believe banning guns will solve the problem? What do we do about guns that are already legally owned but are stolen/misused as in Sandy Hook? Why does anyone believe that a nut like Alexis would not have simply bought a gun in a back room somewhere else?
What do you think would happen if someone in safety management at NASA HQ, Ames, GRC etc. tried to have a team building activity at a shooting range?
Hopefully not a damned thing because it’s a legal, common and enjoyable activity that doesn’t deserve to be treated any differently than golf or any other sport.
What if one of the recipients does not want to go to a gun-related event? By not going are they not a “team players”? Why should a government employee be subject to such pressure as a condition of employment? What if the guys in the office wanted t hold the event at a strip club? or a brothel (in Nevada)? They are legal too.
What if they don’t want to play golf, or hike, or shoot friggin’ baskets? You’re setting up straw men and still haven’t explained outing those people. Do you want the Brady crowd etc. to torment them at home?
I am getting tired of arguing with a troll who uses a fake name and a comic book icon and simply throws up goofy what ifs for me to bat down. Go bother some other website.
The thought of cartoon version of Kieth doing battle with a Docmordrid green troll is pretty funny to me 🙂
Name one team building activity that every employee will want to go to, just one. The only thing I can think of is a money grab so tell me another. You will never find any activity that every employee enjoys or wants to do. As my supervisor’s supervisor has told me No is always an acceptable answer and I employ it regularly.
Where was participation in this event identified as a condition of employment?
I own several guns and go shooting regularly with my sons.
That being said, I think it’s a stupid idea to have official “team building” meetings that would naturally exclude people for many reasons.
The decision to publicize and continue with such an event the day after a terrible gun related catastrophe at another federal facility is double stupid.
The fact that these managers are in charge of safety at JSC is just another sign that the clowns are running the circus at NASA.
From the CDC website:
In other words, 11,078 people were murdered by firearms. 5181 people were murdered with every single thing else put together.
What does this have to do with NASA management sending an official email to NASA employees telling them about a gun-oriented team building activity directly related to their job? I’d have had the same reaction if they said that the event was being held at a strip club.
I’m sure this was planned and the range reserved long before the Navy Yard shootings. There is no logical reason to cancel the event, nor is there any connection between going to the range to shoot targets and going on a shooting rampage to kill people.
Let’s change the equation slightly… Suppose someone used their car to purposely run over and kill a number of people in the parking lot of a Federal office in DC. By Keith’s logic, if JSC had a track day team building event scheduled at Grandsport Speedway, they would be callous and insensitive to send out invitations or not cancel the event.
This dog won’t hunt.
You are missing the point. Is it appropriate for the government to direct employees to attend an event that involves gun shooting? Second would JSC have announced this after their own gun-related tragedy? But not all the gun huggers think I hate guns or want to take them away. Second, as far as your hypothetical. 3 or 4 people have tried this already.
Why wouldn’t it be appropriate to invite employees to a shooting event? It’s no more or less appropriate than anything else. It’s not mandatory.
I can’t tell you what JSC would have done after their own shooting. They probably would have canceled the event, but then again, they probably would have canceled all events. However, an event that happened at JSC should have more impact and consideration on JSC than an event that happened at a Navy facility 1,000 miles away.
The news tries to make everything local but it’s not.
Newsflash – not everyone likes guns – or handling them. So you hold a team building event that either forces some people to handle guns against their wishes (you simply cannot require a civil servant to do this unless firearms usage is part of their job description) or not attend and then not be part of an official team building event announced by management? You have made your point. Find another topic to comment on.
Where was it stated that employees are directed to attend?
We had planned a trip to a local go-cart track for a team building event but darn, every day some fool is dying in a car in Houston and we don’t want to appear insensitive. Lock and Load.
Sounds like a typical big night out in Houston. Did you iron your blue jeans?
Exactly. Rotating through several events is the key. Even then you will probably only get about 80% participation. I don’t even go to free lunches because I don’t care to be around a lot of cliche spouting managers.
If you have had to watch a young man dying with a bullet in his gut from a drive-by shooting, as I have, I don’t think you would equate shooting with bowling for a moment. Moreover, it is a controversial area and viewed by some of its proponents as a metaphor for political opposition to the current administration. Finally, if you want to have a party, fine, but I am deeply skeptical of the value of “team-building” exercises. They seem to be the exclusive province of civil servants.
Can you explain why you think for the purposes of team building that Bowling is not equivalent to shooting at a firing range? I hope you are not going to say that its because of the drive by. Because then if you witnessed (even on TV) the 9/11 planes that killed 3000 people, using your logic and being consistent you would find flying planes objectionable. Part of the problem is many people have been conditioned by the left to associate guns with all things bad which of course it isn’t, just like planes aren’t. Its even in the US Constitution as the second amendment those people new a thing or 2.
There have always been differing opinions, but thanks in no small part to the extraordinary lobbying power of the the NRA, guns today are a powerful political statement in America. If you don’t want to create conflict, don’t bring politics to work.
slow news day at jsc. So what if a bunch of employees want to shoot their rocks off at a run range? It aint a big deal. This is Texas, the gun nut capital of the world. This is expected behavior.